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Old 09-30-2008, 07:48 AM   #16
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I can "double" the wires to each breaker in my breaker panel right?


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Tell your inspector to "go pound sand" next time
Yeah, because that works!

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Old 09-30-2008, 08:38 AM   #17
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I can "double" the wires to each breaker in my breaker panel right?


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Yeah, because that works!

I can't stand inspectors that make up their own code. They only do it because they are incompetent and don't know the "real code".
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Old 09-30-2008, 09:19 AM   #18
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I can "double" the wires to each breaker in my breaker panel right?


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I can't stand inspectors that make up their own code. They only do it because they are incompetent and don't know the "real code".
don't know that that is the case. a lot of older panels were listed as 1 wire per terminal. also sq d is not a very popular in this area. challenger was the equivalent to fpe breakers. they are not making up their own code they are given the right in the beginning "to override any or all" parts of the code. you always, around here, can appeal a ruling but for the most part it bites you in the a** sooner or later.
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Old 09-30-2008, 10:52 AM   #19
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I can "double" the wires to each breaker in my breaker panel right?


Check code first. Some areas do not allow double wires to a single breaker.
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Old 09-30-2008, 10:57 AM   #20
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I can "double" the wires to each breaker in my breaker panel right?


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Originally Posted by Silk View Post
I can't stand inspectors that make up their own code. They only do it because they are incompetent and don't know the "real code".
I don't disagree with you on that one bit. All I have as an inspector is my credibility and I take pride in the fact that the builders and subcontractors know that I will always substantiate my calls with code, and if I can't I'll back off.

You could always do what this guy did. Each wire nut you see combines two or three phase conductors from different circuits and pigtails them to one breaker. Not good. The guy that wired this argued every call I made, and there were a number of them.
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Old 09-30-2008, 11:14 AM   #21
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I can "double" the wires to each breaker in my breaker panel right?


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Being a "newbie", you guys are starting to confuse me with the Multi-wired stuff...
This is a multi wire circuit.
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Old 09-30-2008, 04:06 PM   #22
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I can "double" the wires to each breaker in my breaker panel right?


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I can't stand inspectors that make up their own code. They only do it because they are incompetent and don't know the "real code".
Or because the inspector has a God complex and likes to impose his own opinions as code. This is worse!
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Old 09-30-2008, 04:07 PM   #23
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I can "double" the wires to each breaker in my breaker panel right?


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Check code first. Some areas do not allow double wires to a single breaker.
Even if the breaker compliantly accepts two?
Makes NO sense at ALL.
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Old 09-30-2008, 04:36 PM   #24
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I can "double" the wires to each breaker in my breaker panel right?


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Even if the breaker compliantly accepts two?
Makes NO sense at ALL.
Keep in mind that government writes the rules and logic mean nothing to these people (as evidenced by the recent meltdown in the financial markets).
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Old 09-30-2008, 05:54 PM   #25
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I can "double" the wires to each breaker in my breaker panel right?


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Keep in mind that government writes the rules and logic mean nothing to these people
That's a moronic statement. Just because there are occasionally bad inspectors, it is highly unfair and irrational to paint all inspectors with such a broad brush. The experience level, certification, education, and training required to be an effective building inspector is pretty substantial...With experience we learn where we can and cannot be what you call logical.

"I was trying to be logical" is a statement that an attorney will shoot full of holes when cross-examining a building inspector on the stand. Trust me, I've had attorneys tell me it isn't my job to be logical, it is my job to enforce the code to the letter. Unfortunately, although my goal is to protect the public from fire and other building hazards, my goal is also to protect the City and myself (yeah, I can be held liable in civil and criminal court) from letigious attorneys.

It isn't my job to make builders' and contractors' lives easy and let them slide with things that don't meet code. It is my job to enforce the minimum standard of the code. That doesn't mean that I'm hard to work with...Quite contrary...I'm fair. Logical? I try, but the code isn't always logical.

Sorry, but that struck a nerve.
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Old 09-30-2008, 05:56 PM   #26
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And for the record, install it as listed and I'll accept it any day.
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Old 09-30-2008, 06:12 PM   #27
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I can "double" the wires to each breaker in my breaker panel right?


Besides, the "govt" does NOT write the code books. A code making panel of highly experienced folks do.
And they don't "write" it. They amend, remove or add to what is already in place.

It is NOT a rogue inspector's job to enforce codes that do not exist in such code books.
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Old 09-30-2008, 06:50 PM   #28
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I can "double" the wires to each breaker in my breaker panel right?


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Originally Posted by thekctermite View Post
That's a moronic statement. Just because there are occasionally bad inspectors, it is highly unfair and irrational to paint all inspectors with such a broad brush. The experience level, certification, education, and training required to be an effective building inspector is pretty substantial...With experience we learn where we can and cannot be what you call logical.

"I was trying to be logical" is a statement that an attorney will shoot full of holes when cross-examining a building inspector on the stand. Trust me, I've had attorneys tell me it isn't my job to be logical, it is my job to enforce the code to the letter. Unfortunately, although my goal is to protect the public from fire and other building hazards, my goal is also to protect the City and myself (yeah, I can be held liable in civil and criminal court) from letigious attorneys.

It isn't my job to make builders' and contractors' lives easy and let them slide with things that don't meet code. It is my job to enforce the minimum standard of the code. That doesn't mean that I'm hard to work with...Quite contrary...I'm fair. Logical? I try, but the code isn't always logical.

Sorry, but that struck a nerve.
Inspectors just enforce the code. It is the code I have problems with. Many are antiquated and not up to date. Some they refuse to change and no reason can be given.

One county I work in does not have any code for solar hot water panels and I have 7 of them in my home.

I drain my bathtub into the yard to water my trees, plants and lawn. This is not allowed under the code. No one can tell me why.

Their explanation is that it is sewer water. Yet I am bathing in it. Somehow bathing in sewer water is not the way I see it. Then they say there is soap on the water. Well any gardener will tell you that a little soap is good for drainage in most soil.

So I just save water and drain my tube into the yard and don't tell them.
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Old 09-30-2008, 07:08 PM   #29
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I can "double" the wires to each breaker in my breaker panel right?


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Originally Posted by thekctermite View Post
I don't disagree with you on that one bit. All I have as an inspector is my credibility and I take pride in the fact that the builders and subcontractors know that I will always substantiate my calls with code, and if I can't I'll back off.
The problem, at least as I have encountered it, is not that the inspectors don't know a particular code, but that they often try to enforce something that is not code. What I mean is, where I'm from, we have codes that are often better than NEC standard. And that is fine, as long as it is on paper at the local building department. But sometimes, an inspector wants you to do something a certain way just 'cause that's what he wants. In those cases, he can be told to pound sand. If he enforces something, it must be on the books.

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You could always do what this guy did. Each wire nut you see combines two or three phase conductors from different circuits and pigtails them to one breaker. Not good. The guy that wired this argued every call I made, and there were a number of them.
What's wrong with that? Other than it's ugly? If the wire is the right size for the circuit, then as long as the current comes from the same breaker, there is no fear of overloading the neutrals, as no more current can flow in the neutrals as come from the breaker in the first place. In this case, the panel just happens to be the splice point instead of a j-box.
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Old 09-30-2008, 07:58 PM   #30
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I can "double" the wires to each breaker in my breaker panel right?


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What's wrong with that? Other than it's ugly? If the wire is the right size for the circuit, then as long as the current comes from the same breaker, there is no fear of overloading the neutrals, as no more current can flow in the neutrals as come from the breaker in the first place. In this case, the panel just happens to be the splice point instead of a j-box.
Over 20 wire nuts in a panel, each with at least two circuits' phase conductors under it. The panel cannot be a splice point per code...I'm usually not one to get wound up over it and will allow it here and there as needed, but this was too much. And although not necessarily a code issue, what a disservice to the customer by doing that. Many of the circuits were kitchen and bath 20 amp circuits, grouped together on the same breakers. Think that'll work well? Many, many multiwire branch circuits were out of phase as well. Note the neutrals under the same lugs as the grounds and the doubled neutrals. Did I mention that there's a main disconnect outside? That changes a few things as well (like the neutrals and grounds and the little green screw that was installed in the panel). This panel was a code violation smorgasboard and serves as a good example of how not to wire a panel.

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