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I can "double" the wires to each breaker in my breaker panel right?

15K views 40 replies 18 participants last post by  YerDugliness 
#1 · (Edited)
I have a Square D Homeline HOM3040L200TC breaker panel (200 amp, 30 slots), I have one open slot left, and I'm in a small ranch. To figure out why I have so many breakers I found the finished basement is set up where each room in it has it's own breaker for the lights, and another for the outlets. 6 rooms in the basement = 12 breakers. That's a lot of breakers for 6 small rooms.

I saw previously someone mention that, you can't attach 2 wires into a single breaker unless it's designed for it and they've only seen that with Square D. I have Square D Homeline panel and when I look at the breakers for it, their breakers do have a clamp to attach 2 wires... one on the left and one on the right. Can I combine some of the circuits in my basement so each room takes say only 1 breaker instead of 2 (I know to stay away from the bathroom circuit, and all the rooms & lights down there are all on their own 15A breaker).
 
#2 ·
Yes the Homeline breakers can accept 2 wires under the screw clamp.

I would pick 2 lightly loaded circuits and give it a try to see if problems occurred. If any multi-wire circuits are involved you would need to avoid changing any of those. You could double the current on the neutrals.
 
#5 · (Edited)
...If any multi-wire circuits are involved you would need to avoid changing any of those. You could double the current on the neutrals.
This is true and not true. It will work if both of the ungrounded's of the same multiconductor circuit are hooked to the same breaker. It may not work if only one of them is used. While it is true that the neutral will have to carry the combined current of both of the ungrounded conductors, if both of the same multiconductor circuit are attached to the same breaker the breaker will trip when the current reaches its setting, thus the neutral won't have to carry more than the setting of the breaker. For example, a 12/3 circuit with both of it's ungrounded's on the same 20 amp breaker...the neutral only has to carry 20 amps...which it's rated for anyways. I'm not saying it's the ideal thing to do, I'm just saying it won't hurt the neutral of a properly wired circuit, even if it's a multiconductor. It won't work with say 12/4 (yes, I've seen 12/4) but it will with 12/3, etc. with the proper size breaker.
 
#3 ·
Jim, Good call on the square d panels. I did not know you could double up.
OP: Since you refer to your residence as a ranch, you may need more room. Panel spaces. You could mount a small sub panel right next to the one you have or somewhere convenient. Then you could use two spaces in your main panel and use your sub panel for the extra breaker slots you need now and in the future.
One spare breaker slot is not going to allow for much expansion even if the circuits are lightly loaded. You may free up some space with the basement circuits, but when your house was built, the contractor would not have pulled as many home runs. IMO, I would look at installing the sub panel.
 
#4 ·
Don't forget, you have a 30/40 panel. You can install twin (skinny, tandem, etc) breakers in the bottom 10 spaces if you need more room.
 
#6 ·
Being a "newbie", you guys are starting to confuse me with the Multi-wired stuff....does that mean don't combine a 2-pole breaker to one that is split? that wouldn't work anyhow, right, because the split breaker only touches one of the buss bars and in a multi, doesn't that mean you need V and both busses? or are you talking about 3 way switches??? the only way I can think of a situation where you might use 12/3 or 14/3 is either in a V application or in a V app that utilizes multiple switches - single phase, of course. Can you tell I am trying to learn about electricity but don't really know all that much now????
J:eek:
 
#8 · (Edited)
The code does say no more than one grounded conductor (neutral)(408.41), but it does not put a limit on grounding conductors. The manufacturers do this.
Most new panels are up to three of the same size.
 
#10 ·
Can I combine some of the circuits in my basement so each room takes say only 1 breaker instead of 2 (I know to stay away from the bathroom circuit, and all the rooms & lights down there are all on their own 15A breaker).
Yes, Yes, Yes, a thousand times YES. 12 breakers for the basement is absurd. You said you had a small ranch, let's say 1200 square feet.

1200 x 3va = 3600 VA
3600 VA / 120 volts = 30 amps
30 amps = 2-15 amp circuits

You say you have 12? And they are probably 20 amp at that.

Forget about the subpanel you have more than enough space in your panel. Don't worry about it.

Double them up!!! Piggyback them, whatever, have a ball :thumbsup:
 
#11 ·
Only if the breakers are listed to support two wires. These usually have a small metal plate/washer under the screw with two indentations (one on either side) of the screw where you can put one wire on either side. If it is simply a "V" or "U" shaped hole where the screw tightens down on the wire then these are only listed for one wire. You can still do what you want with this type, only you'd need to use a wire nut and a pigtail to do so.
 
#27 ·
Besides, the "govt" does NOT write the code books. A code making panel of highly experienced folks do.
And they don't "write" it. They amend, remove or add to what is already in place.

It is NOT a rogue inspector's job to enforce codes that do not exist in such code books.
 
#31 ·
Besides, the "govt" does NOT write the code books. A code making panel of highly experienced folks do.
And they don't "write" it. They amend, remove or add to what is already in place.
Very true. Code-making panels are from nearly all facets of the trades. On a certain panel for a certain part of the electric code you might have everyone from building officials, ICC, NFPA, UL, IAEI, electricians, educators, electrical manufacturers, electrical engineers, fire protection people, insurance people, etc. The industry is typically very well-represented, even though a lot of people assume that it is a bunch of inspectors in a room dreaming up code. Most code change is driven by people in the industry.

As industry professionals, you can always propose code changes to the code-making body (NFPA, ICC, etc). Proposals are your right, and they'll look at them.
 
#32 ·
Only issue I have ever had with inspectors is their dislike for the do-it yourselfer. Everyone speaks of people having a bad view of inspectors.....never met an inspector who didn't have a bad opinion of a DIY. I built my own house(not contracted, built) I did the complete wiring job. I work quite a bit with the code at work. (actually mostly with the 500 section) BUT
 
#33 ·
SORRY, COMPUTER SCREW UP ON LAST MESSAGE.
I was required to do everything to the extreme end of the code, not the minimum required. The favorite line I would get when I was going over my plans with the inspector was, "That would work O.K. but I would rather you do it this way." So to avoid a hassle at the time of inspection, I did everything he said the way he wanted. Passed inspection without a single comment.

My brother built a house 4 years later and it was wired by a pro. I found 11 violations in the job. I called the inspector and told him what I found. He informed me that when the job is done by a pro they know where they can take "liberties" with the code! And I always thought the code was just that, a code!


I have no issues with inspectors, I just wish they did not have issues with experienced do it yourselfers.
 
#34 ·
I like dealing with DIYers quite a lot. Most just want to do it right, and I enjoy helping them out. I try to take a proactive approach with them and walk them through my expectations up front so they don't have any big surprises later in the project. Code is the benchmark, and if they meet it, I'm pleased. I will not ask for more. I've seen some pretty spooky DIY jobs for sure, but many (if not most) DIYers are really trying to do it right. By the time I do a rough-in inspection on a typical DIY basement finish for instance, I've probably been to the site at least 3 times and have spoken on the phone with them as well. When I'm in the process of permitting a job, I like to sit down with them and go through the different parts of the job long before anything starts. I make myself available, present myself as a resource for them if they need me, make the process transparent and predictable, and avoid a lot of conflict and hardship that way.

I'd be more willing to give a DIYer some slack before I'd give a professional contractor any. The contractor is a professional or at least should be, so meeting the code shouldn't be foreign to them.
 
#36 ·
I wish thekctermite was in my area.

Electrical, plumbing permits were rough years ago in my area.
When I applied for the permits I felt like I was on the witness stand of a Perry Mason trial! Like they were trying to sweat a code violation out of me!

Keep up the good work!
 
#41 · (Edited)
I wish thekctermite was in my area.
So do I, I am a perfect example of "...a little knowledge is a dangerous thing". I undertook a service upgrade to my project home, installed a 200 amp 40 slot breaker panel and read some DIY books. This home is in a small SW Kansas town (118 population), there are no codes or inspectors in the county.

I have a rather power hungry home entertainment system planned for this home so I installed 30 amp breakers and 10/2 with ground wiring, hoping to be able to have a high load dedicated circuit for that system. THEN, I find out there are no standard duplex outlets that are rated for 30 amps....the only 30 amp 120V outlets use a very different "twist-lock" design. Uh, oh, but ok, I can make up an adaptor chord, right???

Well, the KC termite helped me understand how incredibly wrong I was and how I was taking a chance on having a potential house fire destroy the property :thumbup: .

The point here is that we DIY types do at times believe we know more than we actually do. Had I had an inspector available, or had to pull a permit, ANY form of design assistance prior to the project, I could have saved myself a lot of trouble! I'll gladly deal with a few gentlemanly disagreements with an inspector to avoid sabatoging my own project!

After all, the safety and lives of me and my family depend on my ability, which was obviously not "up to code". Thank God for this forum!

Dugly :cool:
 
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