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Old 03-26-2008, 06:14 AM   #16
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how much capacity do I REALLY have?


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Originally Posted by analogmusicman View Post
can't we all just get along?
Sometimes, but not usually.

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Old 03-26-2008, 06:53 AM   #17
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Often a service upgrade is no more than a change in relatively in-expensive equipment. The actual wiring from the utility doesn't change, usually. I mean, you spend $100 on a meter/main, $30 for a short run of cable to a new $80 panel, which comes with a boat load of breakers. Then $30 on breakers it didn't come with.

Of course, if you're not comfortable doing it yourself, then there is the cost of the electrician...

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Old 03-26-2008, 07:01 AM   #18
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Question:

In alot of states, the homeowner can do work on his own house, unless it is a multi family dwelling.

Does that apply here? I mean, it is going to be an apartment. Seperate living space. Shouldn't matter if it's for grandma or a stranger... I would check your local codes to make sure you can even do this work...
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Old 03-26-2008, 04:26 PM   #19
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I mean, you spend $100 on a meter/main, $30 for a short run of cable to a new $80 panel, which comes with a boat load of breakers. Then $30 on breakers it didn't come with.
Can you buy material for me and deliver it.
You're getting WAY better prices than the rest of us.
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Old 03-26-2008, 04:57 PM   #20
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how much capacity do I REALLY have?


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Can you buy material for me and deliver it.
You're getting WAY better prices than the rest of us.
Really? I think it's cause you have overlooked Home Ripoff. I took a sojourn to my nearest one (47 miles) just yesterday. 200 A meter/main: $108, 200 A main lug 32 circuit panel, with an assortment of breakers: $97 (ok so I was off), 4/0-4/0-4/0-2/0 SER $4.23/foot.

Right now they have rolls of #12 solid THHN 500' for $50. I bought all they had! Check it out.

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Old 03-26-2008, 05:12 PM   #21
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No, I am there on occassion. I find their prices at or higher than my supply houses on MOST items. Some things, like 12/2 and 14/2 NM my suppliers can't match. I'm fie with that.
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Old 03-26-2008, 06:21 PM   #22
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how much capacity do I REALLY have?


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Oh really, do you think there are some secret little elves stealing power that we can't see. It's close enough for what he wants as long as he doesn't forget A/C or whatever. And who really cares if he trips his main breaker, he will learn to tell the kids to turn the stereo off if he is going to use 8 burners and 2 ovens. This sh!t ain't rocket science, no matter how highly you think of yourself.
whooo cowboy, that's pretty harsh talk for a guy who's volunteering his time.

(although I do agree with the rocket science part...lol)

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Old 03-26-2008, 07:16 PM   #23
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how much capacity do I REALLY have?


You could, and certainly should, do a load calc using the examples in the codebook. I suspect with a 2000' house, and electric appliances you'll come out pretty close to 100 amps.

Consider however, the likelyhood of both ranges being on full blast at the same time. I'm not saying just throw it in without regard to the code, (it's wriiten for a valid reason) but sometimes a bit of common sense can go a long way. You might be surprised though, your load calc with the proposed new range might just barely squeak by.

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Old 03-26-2008, 07:26 PM   #24
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how much capacity do I REALLY have?


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Originally Posted by analogmusicman View Post
my house has 100A service (built in '79)
I'd like to put an elec. range in the apartment I'm building downstairs.
problem is,I've already got a 220v circuit for OUR range upstairs.
the question is whether the 100A service will handle TWO ranges or will I have to stick a gas range down there? (having a 200A service installed is out of the question)

tnx,
Just a thought: You have 100a service but are you sure the POCO feeders are only 100a capable? The reason I say this is that I have a house built in 70 that has a 150a panel but the feeders to the meter box and the box itself are 200a capable. The SE cable from meter to panel is smaller and sized for a 150a main panel but for me to upgrade to 200a I would just need to change my panel (an old Murray) and replace the meter to main cable (a length of about 4 feet). My guess is that at the time it was either somewhat cheaper to use the 150a panel or it was not anticipated to need more.
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Last edited by handyman78; 03-26-2008 at 07:29 PM.
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Old 03-29-2008, 02:09 AM   #25
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how much capacity do I REALLY have?


[QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silk View Post
Oh really, do you think there are some secret little elves stealing power that we can't see. It's close enough for what he wants as long as he doesn't forget A/C or whatever. And who really cares if he trips his main breaker, he will learn to tell the kids to turn the stereo off if he is going to use 8 burners and 2 ovens.

Where did this guy come from? A person presents a situation for advice and Speedy recommends a proper load calculation to determine the correct answer for safety purposes. A poster claiming to be an electrician comes up with a method that only shows his ignorance and lack of skills with his cockamayme and dangerous solution.


Quote:
This sh!t ain't rocket science, no matter how highly you think of yourself.
No it isn't. It's a simple calculation that takes less than 20 minutes with the neccessary info performed by a qualified electrician.
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Old 03-29-2008, 05:38 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by idoelectric View Post
A person presents a situation for advice and Speedy recommends a proper load calculation to determine the correct answer for safety purposes. A poster claiming to be an electrician comes up with a method that only shows his ignorance and lack of skills with his cockamayme and dangerous solution.
Those are my sentiments exactly.

I've discovered 2 types of electricians...those that are "real" tradesmen & take their job (& therefore the lives of others) seriously. These people usually take the time & effort to build on their knowledge...especially "technical" knowledge. Most electricians can follow a bunch of rules but it takes a bit of 'nous' to safely & correctly work outside/alongside the rules.

The other type is a rather "slap-dash" type of person who sometimes applies the rules & invariably distorts technical information to suit themselves.

When it comes to Demand, here's what is said in Australia;



"After diversity" Maximum Demand.

The current in a circuit must not exceed the current rating of the circuit protective device, which in turn, must not exceed the current-carrying capacity of the circuit conductors.
For circuits supplying a single item of equipment, the circuit current is simply the nominal load current of the equipment, e.g., a 10000 W 230/400 V three-phase heater has a full per–phase load current of 14.5 A. The circuit conductors and the protective device must have a current-carrying capacity of not less than 16 A (nearest standard rating). Where more than one item of equipment is connected, the circuit current could be simply assessed as the sum of the individual equipment load
currents. While this would provide a safe and conservative solution, it does not take account of the normal operating conditions during which all equipment is not operating simultaneously at full load or for long periods, e.g. submains to a distribution board associated with numerous socketoutlet circuits. Under such conditions the circuit current is estimated using diversity factors and is often described as the ‘after diversity maximum demand’.

The diversity factors applicable to any given circuit in an installation will depend on a number of features of the installation including—
(a) conditions under which the installation is expected to be used, e.g. residential compared with commercial; and
(b) operating characteristics of the connected load, e.g. airconditioning load in tropical locations compared with heating loads in cold-climate regions; and
(c) number and physical distribution of points provided on the circuit, e.g. socket-outlets provided for convenient connection of portable equipment compared to dedicated or fixed equipment loads; and
(d) size and type of significant loads, e.g. large motors or industrial plant.

It should be recognized that the determination of diversity factors is not accurate for every installation and different installations of the same type may have significantly different load profiles which the designer needs to consider. The methods provided herein have been used over several editions of AS/NZS 3000 and, provided that care is taken to assess the
presence of unusual equipment loads, are considered appropriate for many typical applications.




"After Diversity Demand" is obviously something that has been carefully analysed over many years. To suddenly come up with a new & unproven formula for this would be rather silly.
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Old 03-29-2008, 09:30 AM   #27
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[quote=idoelectric;111835]
Quote:


Where did this guy come from? A person presents a situation for advice and Speedy recommends a proper load calculation to determine the correct answer for safety purposes. A poster claiming to be an electrician comes up with a method that only shows his ignorance and lack of skills with his cockamayme and dangerous solution.




No it isn't. It's a simple calculation that takes less than 20 minutes with the neccessary info performed by a qualified electrician.
I see your from Louisiana, so I'll type slow so you can keep up.

1)

2) I have done load calcs more times than you have brushed that tooth of yours, that's how I know that 3VA/ft2 is an estimate based on average usage. There is no exact science to a load calc on a residential dwelling, it is guesswork in itself based on averages. Now turning on all the loads in your house and checking the readings is actually more accurate because it's not being based on averages, but instead on "real loads, real demands". And if you learned how to think for yourself and not just regurgitate code, you would see how little of the capacity of our panels most people actually use. Sorry, I forgot where you were from, you can forget about that thinking part.

3) The only thing I see that's dangerous is giving you inbreds tools. I guess I would like you to explain where the danger comes in, I like to use something called an OCPD on my circuits.

4) It takes you 20 minutes to make a load calc Gee, maybe I should have typed even slower!

This is a DIY site the poster was asking if it was O.K. to do. The answer is probably yes. I have been in many, many, 60 amp houses over the years with all the modern electrical conveniences such as A/C and they've never tripped the main. I have been in many, many , many 100 amp houses over the years with an extra oven in the basement for cooking on over the holidays and they are all still standing. Nothing dangerous about it

Is it just me, or do I hear "dueling banjos"?

Last edited by Ron The Plumber; 03-29-2008 at 07:04 PM. Reason: Removed rude remarks.
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Old 03-29-2008, 09:53 AM   #28
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My comments in blue.
Another thread was closed due to excessive flaming etc. Instead, I will try to use logic to explain to an otherwise "not so skilled" tradesman, why he is mistaken.



[quote=Silk;111892]
Quote:
Originally Posted by idoelectric View Post

I see your from Louisiana, so I'll type slow so you can keep up.

1)

Didn't he? See below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
You'd have to do a load calc to see what your actual demand load is.
It all depends on the house, appliances, typical uses and lifestyle.
Why???
2) I have done load calcs more times than you have brushed that tooth of yours, that's how I know that 3VA/ft2 is an estimate based on average usage. Can somebody verify that after all the years of electrical Maximum Demand calculations, that this "3VA/square foot" is realistic? There is no exact science to a load calc on a residential dwelling, it is guesswork in itself based on averages. It isn't guesswork when you use the rules. Now turning on all the loads in your house and checking the readings is actually more accurate because it's not being based on averages, but instead on "real loads, real demands". And if you learned how to think for yourself and not just regurgitate code, you would see how little of the capacity of our panels most people actually use. Sorry, I forgot where you were from, you can forget about that thinking part.

I think you need to look up the word "diversity".

3) The only thing I see that's dangerous is giving you inbreds tools. I guess I would like you to explain where the danger comes in, I like to use something called an OCPD on my circuits.

Do you know what that abbreviation means (OCPD)?

4) It takes you 20 minutes to make a load calc Gee, maybe I should have typed even slower!

This is a DIY site the poster was asking if it was O.K. to do. The answer is probably yes. (Not sure of the answer? Try using either the "rules" or correct technical methods of Maximum Demand calculation.) I have been in many, many, 60 amp houses over the years with all the modern electrical conveniences such as A/C and they've never tripped the main. I have been in many, many , many 100 amp houses over the years with an extra oven in the basement for cooking on over the holidays and they are all still standing. Nothing dangerous about it

Is it just me, or do I hear "dueling banjos"?
I really think that you should re-think your ideas. Perhaps you fail to see that you are NOT dealing with your money & also, your safety. How is your house wired?...or shouldn't we ask?
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Last edited by Ron The Plumber; 03-29-2008 at 07:05 PM. Reason: Removed referenced rude remarks.
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Old 03-29-2008, 10:09 AM   #29
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probably this oven is OK. your city inspector/permit will tell you if you are safe or not. run dedicated breaker to it of appropriate size. i agree on doing a load calc,.. but in the end, you are left this this practical though:

if it trips main breaker, see if you were doing something unusual. like, had 2 ovens on, vacuuming the house and using electric dryer, and hot-tub on full blast. then you can cut back usage when you are running oven.

but if it trips a couple of times and you WERE careful then you'll have to pay for 200A service. so if the new panel is same manufacturer, then all your breakers are re-usable. and the oven you already installed is OK as is..

so your only additional cost is panel and supply wires from city to panel. no additional work, so everything to did leading up to this final decision does not have to be redone or anything.

this is how i would approach your situation,
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Old 03-29-2008, 10:15 AM   #30
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Can somebody verify that after all the years of electrical Maximum Demand calculations, that this "3VA/square foot" is realistic?

In America we use a demand factor of 3VA/ft2 for general lighting and convenience receptacles in a single family dwelling. You have just made my point for me, it is not realistic or accurate, so thank you very much. As to your "electrical maximum demand calcs", I didn't bother to read it, but we are supposed to use 3VA rule.

It isn't guesswork when you use the rules.

You make my point again, our rules are guesstimates, thank you again

I think you need to look up the word "diversity".

No, I don't believe in diversity, everybody should be just like me, in a perfect world that is.

Do you know what that abbreviation means (OCPD)?

Yes, OverCurrent Protective Device, such as a fuse or breaker. Didn't you Know what it was? If not, at least you learned something today.

(Not sure of the answer? Try using either the "rules" or correct technical methods of Maximum Demand calculation.)

Our "rules" are again ESTIMATIONS (3VA/ft2) do you understand that?

If you look at the OP the title was "How much capacity do I REALLY have". He wasn't asking for an estimate bases on load calcs.

Perhaps you fail to see that you are NOT dealing with your money & also, your safety.

If you want to talk about safety, I would much rather have a DIYer wire in a new electric range than run pipe for a gas range. Last time I checked, electricity didn't "leak" and it's protected by a OCPD (remember that term, I taught it to you a couple of sentances ago). On the other hand if you guys talk him into a gas range and he pipes it himself there is a much better chance of a gas leak and blowing himself up.

Safety first!


Last edited by Silk; 03-29-2008 at 10:19 AM.
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