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Old 04-16-2012, 01:19 PM   #1
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Hot Water & Cook Top Wiring Questions


Hello All,

I'm about to "re-locate" some existing breakers and wires into a subpanel and have a few questions.

1) My existing hot water heater is wired with 2 conductor w/ground wiring (30 amp, #10 wire). Is this still Code compliant or do you have to have 3 conductor now as with dryers?

My existing dryer also has 2 conductor w/ground wiring (installed in 1999).

If I relocated it or the hot water wires/breakers to my new subpanel will they require me to upgrade to current code (3 conductor, if applicable)? The subpanel will attach to the Main Load Center which is where those breakers/wires are currently attached.

Main question is will I be grandfathered with existing wiring in only relocating the breakers/wires to subpanel? I'm not relocating the appliances or recepticles themselves.

2) I have 3 conductor w/ground wires for my cook top. It only requires 2 conducter w/ground however. They wired the ground/neutrals together but has flexible metal conduit running to the cook top itself. Should I remove the ground and bond it to the metal conduit?

Thanks, Ralph

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Last edited by Ralph III; 04-16-2012 at 01:21 PM.
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Old 04-16-2012, 01:29 PM   #2
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Hot Water & Cook Top Wiring Questions


A water heater is 240V only so two insulated wires and ground are all that is necessary.
The dryer should never have been wires with two insulated conductors and a ground. If you move the dryer to a subpanel, it must be wired with three conductor plus ground (H, H, N, G)
If the cooktop requires only 240V, then it's two conductors plus ground. If it requires 120/240V, then it's three conductors plus ground. How many wires are in the cooktop pigtail (conduit)?

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Old 04-16-2012, 02:03 PM   #3
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Hot Water & Cook Top Wiring Questions


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Originally Posted by HouseHelper View Post
A water heater is 240V only so two insulated wires and ground are all that is necessary.
The dryer should never have been wires with two insulated conductors and a ground. If you move the dryer to a subpanel, it must be wired with three conductor plus ground (H, H, N, G)
If the cooktop requires only 240V, then it's two conductors plus ground. If it requires 120/240V, then it's three conductors plus ground. How many wires are in the cooktop pigtail (conduit)?
1) I think code used to only require two conductor w/ground for dryer? They changed the Code several years ago (as I understand, maybe I'm thinking about stand alone stoves?) in now requiring three conductor w/ground. The house should have been compliant when installed in 1999.

2) The cook top only has two conductor w/ground coming from it's metal conduit whip. What about built in oven requirements?

I just need to decide exactly which wires I should relocate without having any inspection issues.

Thanks, Ralph

Last edited by Ralph III; 04-16-2012 at 02:05 PM.
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Old 04-16-2012, 02:18 PM   #4
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Hot Water & Cook Top Wiring Questions


I would leave the large loads in the main panel and move smaller circuits into the subpanel.
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Old 04-16-2012, 02:29 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
I would leave the large loads in the main panel and move smaller circuits into the subpanel.
Hey Jim,

Yes, that's what I'm trying to do. I prefer to relocate two 30 amp circuits (hot water, dryer or cook top).

It looks like I will be relocating the hot water and cook top as those are still code compliant whereas dryer isn't now.

I would have prefered moving the dryer (easier for various reasons) but the h/w and cooktop should be fine.
I was trying to draw the plans out and had no (appliance) neutrals that would have been wired in the subpanel(only grounds).

What should I do with the neutral wire (white insulated) which runs to the cook top now? It is wired together with the ground wire at the cooktop because it only requires 2 conductor w/ground (240 volt). Should I put that neutral wire on the subpanels neutral buss (isolated from ground) with ground wire going to ground bar? I will then seperate those wires at the cooktop and use ground to ground junction box/cooktop metal whip?

Thanks, Ralph

Last edited by Ralph III; 04-16-2012 at 02:40 PM.
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Old 04-16-2012, 02:30 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph III View Post
1) I think code used to only require two conductor w/ground for dryer? They changed the Code several years ago (as I understand, maybe I'm thinking about stand alone stoves?) in now requiring three conductor w/ground. The house should have been compliant when installed in 1999.

2) The cook top only has two conductor w/ground coming from it's metal conduit whip. What about built in oven requirements?

I just need to decide exactly which wires I should relocate without having any inspection issues.

Thanks, Ralph
Old codes allowed for bonding the ground to the neutral for a dryer or range if the appliance was fed with three insulated conductors or SE cable and it originated at the main panel. Two conductors and a bare solid ground has never been compliant.

Most ovens require 120/240V and 4 wires.

As stated, leave the major appliances where they are and move only the smaller loads.
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Old 04-16-2012, 03:12 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph III View Post
Hey Jim,

Yes, that's what I'm trying to do. I prefer to relocate two 30 amp circuits (hot water, dryer or cook top).

It looks like I will be relocating the hot water and cook top as those are still code compliant whereas dryer isn't now.

I would have prefered moving the dryer (easier for various reasons) but the h/w and cooktop should be fine.
I was trying to draw the plans out and had no (appliance) neutrals that would have been wired in the subpanel(only grounds).

What should I do with the neutral wire (white insulated) which runs to the cook top now? It is wired together with the ground wire at the cooktop because it only requires 2 conductor w/ground (240 volt). Should I put that neutral wire on the subpanels neutral buss (isolated from ground) with ground wire going to ground bar? I will then seperate those wires at the cooktop and use ground to ground junction box/cooktop metal whip?

Thanks, Ralph
The neutral and ground wires of the cooktop need to be seperated and terminated seperately to the branch circuit wires.(They are crimped together coming from the whip, correct?)
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Old 04-16-2012, 03:48 PM   #8
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Hot Water & Cook Top Wiring Questions


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Originally Posted by brric View Post
The neutral and ground wires of the cooktop need to be seperated and terminated seperately to the branch circuit wires.(They are crimped together coming from the whip, correct?)
Sorry for the confusion! I had a long night and we're trying to hurry to the beach...

The cooktop (located in center island) has two insulated hot wires (red and black) and one insulated ground wire (green) coming from it's metal whip. This is manufacturer setup and calls for 30amp.

The wires that supply power to it come underground and I think was a blooper by the previous owner/builder. It is actually oversized (#8, 3 conductor w/ground) which I think they meant to run to the built-in oven. It was underdersized 10/2/g. They reversed them as I now recall because I had to replace the oven wire when installing our new oven (40amp).

What should I do with the unnecessary bare ground wire to the cooktop? Should I ground the junction box and hence cook top chasis? Then run both the bare copper and insulated ground wire to the subpanel grounding bar?

Thanks, Ralph
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Old 04-16-2012, 04:07 PM   #9
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Hot Water & Cook Top Wiring Questions


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph III View Post
Sorry for the confusion! I had a long night and we're trying to hurry to the beach...

The cooktop (located in center island) has two insulated hot wires (red and black) and one insulated ground wire (green) coming from it's metal whip. This is manufacturer setup and calls for 30amp.

The wires that supply power to it come underground and I think was a blooper by the previous owner/builder. It is actually oversized (#8, 3 conductor w/ground) which I think they meant to run to the built-in oven. It was underdersized 10/2/g. They reversed them as I now recall because I had to replace the oven wire when installing our new oven (40amp).

What should I do with the unnecessary bare ground wire to the cooktop? Should I ground the junction box and hence cook top chasis? Then run both the bare copper and insulated ground wire to the subpanel grounding bar?

Thanks, Ralph
You said it is a green wire coming from the cooktop. Which is it bare or green?
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Old 04-16-2012, 04:10 PM   #10
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Hot Water & Cook Top Wiring Questions


The branch circuit grounding conductor (bare) is attached to the junction box if metallic and to the grounding conductor of the cooktop(green?). The white conductor of the branch circuit is not used.
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Old 04-16-2012, 05:00 PM   #11
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The branch circuit grounding conductor (bare) is attached to the junction box if metallic and to the grounding conductor of the cooktop(green?). The white conductor of the branch circuit is not used.
The bare ground wire and white insulated wire (branch circuit) both are wired nuted together along with the green insulated wire coming from the cooktop. Hence, the bare ground wire and white insulated wire both serve as the ground wire for the cooktop with each terminating on the Load Centers common Ground/Neutral bar. The cook top only calls for two hots and a ground.

The junction box, where circuit wires and cooktop wires are wire nutted together, is metal but not grounded.

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I should just connect both the bare ground wire and white insulated wire (serving as ground also) to the Subpanels ground bar and put green tape on the white wire. I will then ground the junction box (under counter) also. This should be proper, correct?

The subpanel must have a seperate ground bar and neutral bar (isolated) and I wasn't immediately sure what to do with the extra wire (white). I just hadn't considered it until ya'll brought some things to my attention....

God Bless

Last edited by Ralph III; 04-16-2012 at 05:03 PM.
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Old 04-16-2012, 05:14 PM   #12
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Hot Water & Cook Top Wiring Questions


Separate the white and bare wire in the jbox.
Put a wire nut on the white wire.
Connect the bare wire to the box and too the green wire from the cooktop.

At the subpanel, run a separate ground wire.
Copnnect the ground wire to the ground buss.
The neutral buss will be isolated from the panel.
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Old 04-16-2012, 09:31 PM   #13
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I feel like I'm running on three cylinders today guys, sorry. I'm always sure to get it right in the end though.....

Quote:
jbfan: "Separate the white and bare wire in the jbox.
Put a wire nut on the white wire.
Connect the bare wire to the box and too the green wire from the cooktop..."
Yes, this is exactly what I will do.

I just hadn't considered the cooktop and then forgot how they had it wired. I most likely will not have enough slack for those wires, in re-routing to subpanel, so will put a junction box in the attic. I will terminate the other end of that white wire in the attic junction box as well. I will then continue the circuit with 10/2/g to new subpanel.

Quote:
jbfan: "At the subpanel, run a separate ground wire.
Copnnect the ground wire to the ground buss.
The neutral buss will be isolated from the panel.
Yes that is correct. My question was in regards to which circuits I should re-route (from Main Load Center to Subpanel). I'm good to go on the supanel setup itself.

Thanks for keeping/setting me straight.

God Bless

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Last edited by Ralph III; 04-16-2012 at 09:35 PM.
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