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OKDrew63 08-30-2012 07:29 PM

Hot Tub wiring - Another question
 
I'm installing a 240V/60A hot tub about 65' from the main house panel (200 Amp service). I'm running 6ga THWN wire, 4 conductors, in 1" Schedule 40.

I've got a 60A breaker in the main service panel and running the 6ga wires to a spa panel that has a 60A GFCI in it, along with 2 slots for an accessory circuit or two. I plan on installing a 20A GFCI breaker in this panel and running an outlet and light switch on this circuit (12ga THWN wire in schedule 40 as well.)

So I have a 60A breaker in the main service panel and a 60A GFCI and 20A GFCI running off of it. The spa pulls 48A max.

Do I need to be concerned with the 6ga wire being undersized for the 60A and 20A GFCI's?

Do I need a larger breaker at the main service panel, and if so, what size should I have gone with?

Thanks for the help.

This is the spa panel I'm installing.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...ls_o02_s00_i02

stickboy1375 08-30-2012 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OKDrew63 (Post 1000116)
I'm installing a 240V/60A hot tub about 65' from the main house panel (200 Amp service). I'm running 6ga THWN wire, 4 conductors, in 1" Schedule 40.

I've got a 60A breaker in the main service panel and running the 6ga wires to a spa panel that has a 60A GFCI in it, along with 2 slots for an accessory circuit or two. I plan on installing a 20A GFCI breaker in this panel and running an outlet and light switch on this circuit (12ga THWN wire in schedule 40 as well.)

So I have a 60A breaker in the main service panel and a 60A GFCI and 20A GFCI running off of it. The spa pulls 48A max.

Do I need to be concerned with the 6ga wire being undersized for the 60A and 20A GFCI's?

Do I need a larger breaker at the main service panel, and if so, what size should I have gone with?

Thanks for the help.



everything seems legit so far.... The disconnect needs to be located 5' from the tub. FYI....

OKDrew63 08-30-2012 07:59 PM

Oh, yea, I'm burying the schedule 40.

No worries about any temp coefficient of 4 wires in the conduit when underground and driving the need to have larger wire?

Anything about the breaker being 125% of continuous or non-continuous load?

I've got someone putting a bug in my ear, that's what's driving me doubting myself since I'm not electrician - he's not one either, but an electrical engineer.

Thanks for the reply Stick.

stickboy1375 08-30-2012 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OKDrew63 (Post 1000138)
Oh, yea, I'm burying the schedule 40.

No worries about any temp coefficient of 4 wires in the conduit when underground and driving the need to have larger wire?

Anything about the breaker being 125% of continuous or non-continuous load?

I've got someone putting a bug in my ear, that's what's driving me doubting myself since I'm not electrician - he's not one either, but an electrical engineer.

Thanks for the reply Stick.

A hot tub doesn't qualify for a continuous load, and who mentioned temp coefficient to you? lol.... You friends with an electrical engineer? :) Those guys are the best. :no:

OKDrew63 08-30-2012 08:52 PM

If you don't mind, what is the definition of a continuous and non-continuous load, in regard to the NEC?

Yes, these were all mentioned by my son, the electrical engineer. He started on me early today.

jbfan 08-30-2012 08:55 PM

A continuous load is any load expected to run 3 or more hours at a time.

stickboy1375 08-30-2012 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OKDrew63 (Post 1000170)
If you don't mind, what is the definition of a continuous and non-continuous load, in regard to the NEC?

Yes, these were all mentioned by my son, the electrical engineer. He started on me early today.

Good guess, huh? :thumbsup: Tell him to stick at what he does best. :) Electricians and electrical engineers are worlds apart... and we like it that way. :)


LOL, i never even read that you mentioned he was an a electrical engineer... oops... still funny though.

I have to stop skimming these when I read them. :)

stickboy1375 08-30-2012 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbfan (Post 1000173)
A continuous load is any load expected to run 3 or more hours at a time.

And the reason the tub does not qualify for this, is because everything wont be on at once, and even if it were, the heater cycles on and off.

Stubbie 08-30-2012 10:05 PM

Quote:

No worries about any temp coefficient of 4 wires in the conduit when underground and driving the need to have larger wire?
He is talking about ampacity adjustments when more than 3 current carrying conductors are installed in a conduit. You do not have more than 3 current carrying conductors. Again he is not schooled properly to interpret what he is reading.

Quote:

Anything about the breaker being 125% of continuous or non-continuous load?
I think your engineering friend is trying to read a copy of the NEC but lacks the practical experience to interpret it correctly. I think he must be reading this for branch circuits. You do not have any continuous loads.

210.20 Overcurrent Protection. Branch-circuit conductors
and equipment shall be protected by overcurrent protective
devices that have a rating or setting that complies
with 210.20(A) through (D).


(A) Continuous and Noncontinuous Loads.
Where a
branch circuit supplies continuous loads or any combination
of continuous and noncontinuous loads, the rating of
the overcurrent device shall not be less than the noncontinuous
load plus 125 percent of the continuous load

Quote:

I've got someone putting a bug in my ear, that's what's driving me doubting myself since I'm not electrician - he's not one either, but an electrical engineer

Stubbie 08-30-2012 10:32 PM

Quote:

I'm installing a 240V/60A hot tub about 65' from the main house panel (200 Amp service). I'm running 6ga THWN wire, 4 conductors, in 1" Schedule 40.
That's fine but the ground does not need to be 6 awg, it does need to be insulated as your running a feeder to a panelboard that is supplying a spa/hot tub. For 60 amp circuit breakers protecting a feeder you can use 10 awg THWN copper for ground as long as the distance your running does not have to consider voltage drop for the conductors..


Quote:

I've got a 60A breaker in the main service panel and running the 6ga wires to a spa panel that has a 60A GFCI in it, along with 2 slots for an accessory circuit or two. I plan on installing a 20A GFCI breaker in this panel and running an outlet and light switch on this circuit (12ga THWN wire in schedule 40 as well.)

So I have a 60A breaker in the main service panel and a 60A GFCI and 20A GFCI running off of it. The spa pulls 48A max.

Do I need to be concerned with the 6ga wire being undersized for the 60A and 20A GFCI's?
Not likely

Quote:

Do I need a larger breaker at the main service panel, and if so, what size should I have gone with?
6 awg thwn copper is good for 65 amps in conduit ... you can protect that with a 70 amp breaker if you want per NEC 240.4(D). The 60 amp gfci at the spa panel is protecting the branch circuit for the spa which is max 48 amps. So your fine there. The breaker at the main panel will see the spa and the secondary 20 amp gfci branch circuit. If the spa was pulling 48 amps and you were operating something on the 20 amp gfci that was pulling 12 amps you would be pulling 60 amps through the 60 amp breaker at the main panel. This would not trip the breaker and both at the same time is unlikely. If you think other wise then install a 70 amp breaker to protect your panelboard feeder.

stickboy1375 08-30-2012 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stubie (Post 1000217)
That's fine but the ground does not need to be 6 awg, it does need to be insulated as your running a feeder to a panelboard that is supplying a spa/hot tub. For 60 amp circuit breakers protecting a feeder you can use 10 awg THWN copper for ground as long as the distance your running does not have to consider voltage drop for the conductors..




Stubbie, every hottub i've ever wired, the manufacture required a full size EGC, so, #6 is highly recommend for the EGC, even though it is a silly requirement.

Stubbie 08-30-2012 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stickboy1375 (Post 1000219)
Stubbie, every hottub i've ever wired, the manufacture required a full size EGC, so, #6 is highly recommend for the EGC, even though it is a silly requirement.

Ok that is was something I don't remember. I do remember several hot tubs giving a minimum size of not less than 10 awg. But I'll take note of that since you are more currently up to date on these installation than I am. Last one I wired was probably 2006 or maybe 2007.

stickboy1375 08-30-2012 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stubie (Post 1000223)
Ok that is was something I don't remember. I do remember several hot tubs giving a minimum size of not less than 10 awg. But I'll take note of that since you are more currently up to date on these installation than I am. Last one I wired was probably 2006 or maybe 2007.

Its been a long time since I've come across one that didn't require it... stupid though...

frenchelectrican 08-30-2012 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stickboy1375 (Post 1000219)
Stubbie, every hottub i've ever wired, the manufacture required a full size EGC, so, #6 is highly recommend for the EGC, even though it is a silly requirement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stubie (Post 1000223)
Ok that is was something I don't remember. I do remember several hot tubs giving a minimum size of not less than 10 awg. But I'll take note of that since you are more currently up to date on these installation than I am. Last one I wired was probably 2006 or maybe 2007.

I have install hot tub over here in France and we have simair codes as you guys have and for the EGC the smallest one we can run on 48 amp (50 or 60 amp ) we have to use 16mm2 which it the same as #6 AWG.

Merci,
Marc

OKDrew63 08-31-2012 08:00 AM

Be gentle, even though he's an engineer, he is my son. :)

He'll be over at the house today helping me get the electric squared away.

So at worst, I may WANT to upgrade the main panel breaker to 70A. At least that's what I'm getting from the conversation here.

Thanks for the info and clarifications, it's helped me quite a bit.


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