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Old 07-15-2013, 09:06 AM   #31
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HOT Neutral


http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...ric/dcex3.html

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Old 07-15-2013, 09:09 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by k_buz View Post
Depending on that situation, it is very likely you didn't get hit by a neutral, rather a white used as a traveler/switch leg/hot.
No switch legs in my house thankfully. If it was used as a traveler or hot, how could it have worked all nutted together with other neutrals?
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Old 07-15-2013, 09:20 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by herdfan View Post
No switch legs in my house thankfully. If it was used as a traveler or hot, how could it have worked all nutted together with other neutrals?

Hate to tell you but there are several switch legs in your house...
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Old 07-15-2013, 10:04 AM   #34
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I think I have a brain blockage here.

My understanding is that by strict definition, neutral really has nothing to do with ground, but is the center tap in the transfomer mid way between the two ends of the secondary windings that create a current of 240 volts. As such, the neutral splits the volts into two 120 volt circuits.

The term "grounding" has multiple meanings:

1. System Grounding is the connection of one of the conductors at the service entrance to the ground. In US residential (per code), we do tihs with the neutral on the secondary side of the transformer. In distribution past the service, the black is connected to one of the two hots from the transformer and the white is connected to the neutral (which also happens to be the grounded conductor). Both the black and white wires are EXPECTED TO CARRY CURRENT in normal operation and therefore are insullated so they don't create enough heat and cause a fire. In other words, they complete a circuit that allows electrons to flow. It's the insullation that let's os color them black or white. I imagine it would be tough to dye bare copper some other color than - well - copper.

2. Equipment Grounding is connecting the outer cabinets of equipment to the grounded conductor at the service entrance to create a low impedance path in case a short occurs inside the equipment causing curent to flow onto the cabinet. The equipment grounding conductor is NEVER EXPECTED TO CARRY current in normal operation and therefore is not required to be insullated (it is bare).

So if the above is right, the black and white carry current in normal operation. Therefore - would you not get shocked from either? If electrons are being pushed along through a completed circuit they would flow through the path of least resistance regardless of what the two ends of the wire are connected to or the color of the wire or where they are in relation to the load.

If a person becomes part of the circuit the electrons would flow through them with the amount depending on how effective of a conductor they create relative to the "normal" circuit. It's not a matter of IF the current will flow - it's a matter of how much. You are getting "shocked" or "zapped" or "bit". It's just a matter of how severely.

If the path of least resistance through the person is in proximity of nerves it is going to be sensed as "tingling" and can affect whatever the nerves are controlling (such as muscle). If you stick a nine volt battery on your tounge the current creates tingling. If enough flows through an organ that is highly dependent on electricity for normal function (such as the heart) there are going to be more dramatic effects. In addition, the heat caused by the flow of electrons can literally cook the tissue both inside and on the exterior of the skin.

So it seems to me that if you in contact with any conductor of any color and therefore becoming part of the path over which electrons are flowing you are getting "shocked" "zapped" or "bit" with the effects ranging from no discernable effect to involuntary muscle movement (or lack thereof) to electrocution which is defined as "death due to electric shock".

Last edited by dgfit; 07-15-2013 at 10:07 AM.
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Old 07-15-2013, 11:25 AM   #35
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DJ.... Liked your below discussion/comments... helps all of us non-EE or Sparkies better understand electrical theory.... which in turn helps us understand practice.

I've tossed in a few comments... maybe right or wrong... in the interest of further understanding.

Best

Peter



Quote:
Originally Posted by dgfit View Post
I think I have a brain blockage here.

My understanding is that by strict definition, neutral really has nothing to do with ground, but is the center tap in the transfomer mid way between the two ends of the secondary windings that create a current of 240 volts. As such, the neutral splits the volts into two 120 volt circuits.

The term "grounding" has multiple meanings:

1. System Grounding is the connection of one of the conductors at the service entrance to the ground. In US residential (per code), we do tihs with the neutral on the secondary side of the transformer. In distribution past the service, the black is connected to one of the two hots from the transformer and the white is connected to the neutral (which also happens to be the grounded conductor). Both the black and white wires are EXPECTED TO CARRY CURRENT in normal operation and therefore are insullated so they don't create enough heat and cause a fire. (Actually, I thought wires were insulated to prevent faulting, and actually insulation contains heat and theoretically increases heat containment and chance of fire.)In other words, they complete a circuit that allows electrons to flow. It's the insullation that let's os color them black or white. I imagine it would be tough to dye bare copper some other color than - well - copper.

2. Equipment Grounding is connecting the outer cabinets of equipment to the grounded conductor at the service entrance to create a low impedance path in case a short occurs inside the equipment causing curent to flow onto the cabinet. The equipment grounding conductor is NEVER EXPECTED TO CARRY current in normal operation and therefore is not required to be insullated (it is bare).

So if the above is right, the black and white carry current in normal operation. Therefore - would you not get shocked from either? If electrons are being pushed along through a completed circuit they would flow through the path of least resistance (We have probably an issue here, whether we are in parrellel or series. I think if we are in parrellel as in the case of a bootleg ground with a functioning neutral, electrons flow not thru the path of least resistance, but technically thru both paths. It's just the amount of current thru you is very slight/small due to your high resistance and nominal voltage. I think you get shocked technically, just not noticably so. Now if the neutral is broken, you have gone in series, with different circumstances.) regardless of what the two ends of the wire are connected to or the color of the wire or where they are in relation to the load.

If a person becomes part of the circuit the electrons would flow through them with the amount depending on how effective of a conductor they create relative to the "normal" circuit. It's not a matter of IF the current will flow - it's a matter of how much. You are getting "shocked" or "zapped" or "bit". It's just a matter of how severely. (I think, if I understand you correctly, you are correct and I agree)

If the path of least resistance through the person is in proximity of nerves it is going to be sensed as "tingling" and can affect whatever the nerves are controlling (such as muscle). If you stick a nine volt battery on your tounge the current creates tingling. If enough flows through an organ that is highly dependent on electricity for normal function (such as the heart) there are going to be more dramatic effects. In addition, the heat caused by the flow of electrons can literally cook the tissue both inside and on the exterior of the skin. (Not very sure of the biological effects, but I think you are corerct)

So it seems to me that if you in contact with any conductor of any color and therefore becoming part of the path over which electrons are flowing you are getting "shocked" "zapped" or "bit" with the effects ranging from no discernable effect to involuntary muscle movement (or lack thereof) to electrocution which is defined as "death due to electric shock".
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Last edited by MTN REMODEL LLC; 07-15-2013 at 12:02 PM.
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Old 07-15-2013, 11:42 AM   #36
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Interesting discussion here.
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Old 07-15-2013, 03:09 PM   #37
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Original Quote (partial of) by Philly Master: Well the neutral will always be hot if the lamp was on open or not...

Drawing "A"
http://microlightstore.com/lamp_and_...t-jumpered.jpg

Drawing "B" http://microlightstore.com/lamp_and_...e_jumpered.jpg

Given the lamp ON, in my Drawing A, if the neutral were not OPEN, you're saying that the neutral is still HOT, and are you agreeing it is still HOT with only with voltage per Ohm's law, using the resistance value from neutral side of the load, back to the neutral bus bar at service panel (i.e., the neutral side of... lamp cord wire, the plug, outlet, and wire returning from outlet to panel)? Did I understand you correctly"?
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Old 07-15-2013, 03:45 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Philly Master View Post
Hate to tell you but there are several switch legs in your house...
Please explain. My understanding of what a switch leg is when power goes to the fixture first, then a leg runs to the switch. All my switches have power coming into the switch box first.

Now if you are referring to multi-ways, then yes I have those, but the line is still going to the first box, not the fixture.
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Old 07-15-2013, 03:53 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by herdfan View Post
Please explain. My understanding of what a switch leg is when power goes to the fixture first, then a leg runs to the switch. All my switches have power coming into the switch box first.

Now if you are referring to multi-ways, then yes I have those, but the line is still going to the first box, not the fixture.
power to fixture then to switch and back to fixture is a switch loop.some call it a dead-end.
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Old 07-15-2013, 04:18 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by herdfan View Post
Please explain. My understanding of what a switch leg is when power goes to the fixture first, then a leg runs to the switch. All my switches have power coming into the switch box first.

Now if you are referring to multi-ways, then yes I have those, but the line is still going to the first box, not the fixture.
That is the switch leg
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Old 07-15-2013, 04:20 PM   #41
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Quote:
My understanding is that by strict definition, neutral really has nothing to do with ground, but is the center tap in the transfomer mid way between the two ends of the secondary windings that create a current of 240 volts. As such, the neutral splits the volts into two 120 volt circuits.
You are forgetting that the neutral is grounded. That is what holds the voltage of each leg at 120 volts to ground, even when the loads on the legs are unbalanced. If you had a center tap that was not grounded, you would have a floating neutral when the loads are unbalanced, and each hot leg would have a different potential (voltage) to ground.
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Old 07-15-2013, 04:21 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justplumducky View Post
Original Quote (partial of) by Philly Master: Well the neutral will always be hot if the lamp was on open or not...

Drawing "A"
http://microlightstore.com/lamp_and_...t-jumpered.jpg

Drawing "B" http://microlightstore.com/lamp_and_...e_jumpered.jpg

Given the lamp ON, in my Drawing A, if the neutral were not OPEN, you're saying that the neutral is still HOT, and are you agreeing it is still HOT with only with voltage per Ohm's law, using the resistance value from neutral side of the load, back to the neutral bus bar at service panel (i.e., the neutral side of... lamp cord wire, the plug, outlet, and wire returning from outlet to panel)? Did I understand you correctly"?

If it is open from the fixture side ...or just working normally u can get shocked...
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Old 07-15-2013, 04:24 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Oso954 View Post
You are forgetting that the neutral is grounded. That is what holds the voltage of each leg at 120 volts to ground, even when the loads on the legs are unbalanced. If you had a center tap that was not grounded, you would have a floating neutral when the loads are unbalanced, and each hot leg would have a different potential (voltage) to ground.
Never seen a house that have the same voltage to ground on each leg...
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Old 07-15-2013, 04:26 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by oleguy74 View Post
power to fixture then to switch and back to fixture is a switch loop.some call it a dead-end.
Dead end to me is a 3 way switch that the 14/3 or 12/3 ends in that switch box with no other wires.....
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Old 07-15-2013, 05:00 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Oso954 View Post
You are forgetting that the neutral is grounded. That is what holds the voltage of each leg at 120 volts to ground, even when the loads on the legs are unbalanced. If you had a center tap that was not grounded, you would have a floating neutral when the loads are unbalanced, and each hot leg would have a different potential (voltage) to ground.
I thought a floating neutral (as it applies to residential) is when the neutral conductor (which also happens to be the grounded conductor) is lost which would allow the legs to rise above 120 (because you are no longer connected to the center tap). Are you saying, for example, that if the neutral is lost at the pole then the two legs would not rise above 120 as long as the neutral remains grounded at the service?

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