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Old 05-29-2012, 01:25 PM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
This is not acting childish. That example was purposely done to show how words can be twisted.

Show me where this is allowed.
WHY would I have to show you where this is allowed? As a Licensed Electrician you should know that something does NOT have to be "Allowed" by the NEC in order for it to be legal. If something is not specifically restricted by the NEC, it is allowed.

Quote:
How about asking the professional sites like at Mike Holt or Electrician Talk?
It's been discussed there multiple times, links were even posted. I showed where even Moderators at ET said that you can tape up a live wire and dead end it int he wall.
Quote:
You could also search this site for someone that also thought it was safe to bury a splice as there was no way for it to fail and was shown differently.
It IS safe to bury a splice. Burying a splice is no more dangerous than putting a plastic cover plate on it and having it exposed.

Not burying splices is a convenience for future troubleshooting in case the splice comes loose. When there is no splice, such as a dead ended cable, that problem doesn't exist.

This is basic 1st year apprentice stuff.

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Old 05-29-2012, 01:35 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Macro View Post
You're not an electrician, I can't expect you to know how the NEC works.
Your right....I'm not an electrician....I'm a controls engineer.....
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Old 05-29-2012, 01:39 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by ddawg16 View Post
Your right....I'm not an electrician....I'm a controls engineer.....
Yes, and that doesn't impress me one bit, but nice try for the second time there buddy.

You're the guy who came into this thread bragging that he knew more about electricity than any of us. But in the same breath you said that you don't know much about the NEC…

This discussion is 100% about the NEC, and you know nothing about it, so you are not qualified to even discuss this issue. I wouldn't go to a Cardiologist's office and tell him how specific technical medical terms SHOULD be used.

If you don't know how the NEC is using specific words, there is no way that you can accurately tell us how it's defining those words. You are making ignorant assumptions, and your superior knowledge of electricity doesn't change anything.
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Old 05-29-2012, 01:49 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Macro View Post
This is basic 1st year apprentice stuff.
Kind of like which side of a ribbed cable is the neutral?
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Old 05-29-2012, 01:54 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macro View Post
It IS safe to bury a splice. Burying a splice is no more dangerous than putting a plastic cover plate on it and having it exposed.

Not burying splices is a convenience for future troubleshooting in case the splice comes loose. When there is no splice, such as a dead ended cable, that problem doesn't exist.
Where is a means to contain any arc or spark when the splice is just buried in the wall to prevent the wall cavity from becoming a fire pit? If the NEC decided that a buried splice is not dangerous why is it disallowed?
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Old 05-29-2012, 01:54 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
Kind of like which side of a ribbed cable is the neutral?
I'm sorry that none of my experience is in residential lamp rewiring

As I said, I always used the marked side for positive/hot and I always checked continuity to be sure. I never had a reason to look up the code.
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Old 05-29-2012, 02:01 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Code05 View Post
and here is the ROP:

3- 83 - (300-15(a)): Accept in Principle
SUBMITTER: Robert H. Keis, Dover, DE
RECOMMENDATION: Insert the words "termination point" into
the required locations or points where a box is required.
300-15. Boxes, Conduit Bodies, or Fittings—Where Required.
(a) Box or Conduit Body. Where the wiring method is
conduit, electrical metallic tubing, Type AC cable, Type MC
cable, Type MI cable, nonmetallic-sheathed cable, or other
cables, a box or conduit body complying with Article 370 shall be
installed at each conductor splice point, outlet, switch point,
junction point, termination point, or pull point, unless otherwise
permitted in (b) through (n). A box shall be installed at each
outlet and switch point for concealed knob-and-tube wiring.
SUBSTANTIATION: The argument has come up recently about
just taping the ends of an abandoned, but usable cable and
leaving the cable end buried in a wall or laying in a ceiling.
Nowhere in the code can I find a requirement that abandoned
cables need to be removed and a lot of times that would be
needless expense. Often cables are discontinued for one reason
or another and may or could be utilized again in the future. This
will settle a long standing argument. We tell the electrician when
he violates the code to "read the words." He did just that, and
that is reason for this proposal. The words aren't there!
PANEL ACTION: Accept in Principle.
PANEL STATEMENT: See panel action on Proposal 3-81.
However, truly abandoned wires should not remain energized or
connected to a possible source of potential.
NUMBER OF PANEL MEMBERS ELIGIBLE TO VOTE: 11
VOTE ON PANEL ACTION:
AFFIRMATIVE: 11
Looks like the CMP outnumbers you 11 to 1.
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Old 05-29-2012, 02:02 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
Where is a means to contain any arc or spark when the splice is just buried in the wall to prevent the wall cavity from becoming a fire pit?
We are talking about a splice in a BOX that is inaccessible. I NEVER said that you can't have a flying splice in a wall without a box.

The box will contain the arc the same way whether the box is accessible or not.

And again, I am not promoting someone burying a splice box. Just discussing the issue.
Quote:
If the NEC decided that a buried splice is not dangerous why is it disallowed?
I said this already, three times actually. You want to argue with me, yet you don't read what I said.

Leaving splice boxes accesible is a convenience for future troubleshooting in case the splice becomes loose. At no times have I ever heard of an inaccesible junction box being a safety issue.

I have a box in my ceiling that was covered over before I bought the house, I saw it from the attic before I put the flooring down. The box has a cover over it so the fact that a little bit of spackling mud is covering it up doesn't make it dangerous. But it would be a pain if that splice came loose and I didn't know the box was there. That's why junction boxes are required to be accessible.
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Old 05-29-2012, 02:06 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
Looks like the CMP outnumbers you 11 to 1.
This is yet another instance of you not reading what I said. Read the following quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macro View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
So let me pose this, a live splice would need to be in an accessible junction box, but a live deadended cable in a box could be buried?

I certainly don't think that is the intent.
I agree that it might not be the intent of the code. But in my opinion it is allowed because I do not see anything restricting it.

It's similar to the way that the code only requires one of the receptacles in a bathroom to be 20A, the rest can be 15A. I don't believe that is the intent, but that's the way it's written.

The CMP spends way too much time dealing with the manufacturer's lobbyists and not enough time making small and simple things clear.
The intent of the code really doesn't matter, the written word does. As I said from the beginning of this thread, they are very unclear and the way it's written doesn't restrict one from burying a live dead ended cable.

Now why don't YOU take your own advice and go to MH and ET and read all the threads discussing this topic. You'll see that there are plenty of people who agree with me that the code is written in a very poor way that doesn't convey what their original intention was, therefore it doesn't restrict it.
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Old 05-29-2012, 02:10 PM   #130
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Is it legal to remove a sconce from a box, cover that box, and bury it in the wall if it only contained one 14-2 NM cable?
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Old 05-29-2012, 02:14 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macro View Post
It's been discussed there multiple times, links were even posted. I showed where even Moderators at ET said that you can tape up a live wire and dead end it int he wall.

.

Here is a quote from Dennis Alwon, one of the Mods at MH

Quote:
Unless I know where the other end is I would leave the old wires in the jb and tape them off. If it does get energized there is no big deal, however if it is laying in the ceiling energized at a future date, then it would be a violation.
From pg 2 in the same thread also from Dennis

Quote:
Scott, I am talking about my preference of handling the situation. If the wire should be energized and it is in the ceiling without a JB then we have a potentially dangerous situation that is not code compliant. Article 300.15 states we must use a jb with a few exceptions
from pg 3 also by Dennis to Bob.

Quote:
Well if you don't see the end of the wire as the termination then I can't make you see it that way. We will just have to see it differently. :grin:

I just can't imagine the writers of the NEC would say this was allowed.
Here is where Bob concedes. Bob is also a Mod at MH.

Quote:
I love the ROPs, they have proved my views so many times.


But not this time, :grin: it looks like they added 'termination point' for just this reason in the 2002 NEC.

So Dennis you are correct and I was wrong.
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Old 05-29-2012, 02:14 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by k_buz View Post
Is it legal to remove a sconce from a box, cover that box, and bury it in the wall if it only contained one 14-2 NM cable?
Welcome to the first page!!

Everything is legal unless it is specified as being not allowed by the NEC (provided your jurisdiction goes by the NEC and doesn't have any other amendments about this issue).

So the burden is on you to show where the NEC doesn't allow you to do that. If you can't show that, then it is allowed.
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Old 05-29-2012, 02:20 PM   #133
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You are playing these games again, you know as well as I do that it is specifically prohibited.

And what you implying is that the situation I just questioned you on, that if you take the box off the single 14-2 MN, and do nothing else, it is legal to stuff that wire in the wall.

In fact, with what you are saying, if capping a wire isn't a type of termination you don't even have to tape or put wirenuts on the wire you stuff in the wall.
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Old 05-29-2012, 02:31 PM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
Here is a quote from Dennis Alwon, one of the Mods at MH



From pg 2 in the same thread also from Dennis



from pg 3 also by Dennis to Bob.



Here is where Bob concedes. Bob is also a Mod at MH.
Here is a quote from Marc Shunk, Moderator and founder of this forum's sister site Electriciantalk.com:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MDShunk
Splices you can't bury, but there's no mention about dead ends.
And another:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDShunk
I feel compelled to ask you do look it up, because I know you'll give up in frustration. Those of us with a great many years in this trade already know that this is not prohibited by the NEC.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion of this practice as being "hack", but you can't pretend for even a second that it's a violation.
And another:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDShunk
You're entitled to your opinion that it's hack, but there is no violation. A termination point would necessitate that it ends at a terminal of some sort. The conductors we're talking about are unterminated.
And another:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDShunk
Termination is the connection to equipment and devices. They don't want you to, for instance, terminate a receptacle without a box. To terminate a wire necessarily involves a terminal of some sort.
Hey look at this one, look familiar??
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDShunk
Every instance where the word "terminate" is used in the NEC, the wire is actually connected to something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MDShunk
I don't agree.

I think we can both agree that the word "terminate" has two meanings, and it's not at all clear what meaning they're using in the NEC when they talk about cables that "terminate" needing to be in a box. That gives me the latitude to select the meaning that suits me best.
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Old 05-29-2012, 02:34 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by k_buz View Post
You are playing these games again, you know as well as I do that it is specifically prohibited.
Wow, after I have said it what, 40 times now, you still don't understand that my opinion is different than your's?

It's EXTREMELY arrogant of you to say " you know as well as I do that it is specifically prohibited" when I clearly do not feel that way.

I guess you are one of those people who feels' their opinion is better than other people's?
Quote:
And what you implying is that the situation I just questioned you on, that if you take the box off the single 14-2 MN, and do nothing else, it is legal to stuff that wire in the wall.
No, I am not implying it, I have said it outright dozens of times. You too seem to have a reading or comprehension problem.

Until you can show me where it is prohibited, it is allowed.
Quote:
In fact, with what you are saying, if capping a wire isn't a type of termination you don't even have to tape or put wirenuts on the wire you stuff in the wall.
Show me the requirement to tape or nut a wire in the wall.

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