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Old 05-29-2012, 12:21 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Code05 View Post
It is not defined in the NEC specifically. However 90.4 allows an AHJ to interpret or define it, and many go with a ROP short of a formal interpretation.

And it is "termination point".
Yes, the termination point is the point of termination. A loose wire has no termination point since it has not been terminated by the definition that the NEC uses in any of the many hundreds of times that it uses the word.

Words have many definitions. All of those definitions do not apply each time a word is used. For example, the word terminate can be defined as "assassinate, kill". However, we all know that doesn't apply to the way we use the word in our trade and in the NEC. The same for the definition "end". No one in our trade has ever told someone to "make that termination" and that person came back and said "it's already ended in mid air!". No where in the NEC is the word "termination" use to define the end of the wire, out of hundreds of times it's used...

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Old 05-29-2012, 12:28 PM   #107
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Would you also argue with the police that pulled you over for the illegal U turn that they could not because you swung wide right before going left which caused your turn to be shaped like a P?

We have shown numerous times that the word terminate or terminal can have differing meaning. You choose to focus on only one of those. I have replied with the common or dictionary usage of the word temination as being the endpoint of something. I don't believe you answered what you would call the finite endpoint of the cable if it is not a terminal end.
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Old 05-29-2012, 12:31 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macro View Post
Yes, the termination point is the point of termination. A loose wire has no termination point since it has not been terminated by the definition that the NEC uses in any of the many hundreds of times that it uses the word.
Why can I not let this die.

The NEC DOES NOT amend the definition of termination point to mean something other than what the dictionary defines it as. Therefore, whether you like it or not, the definition of termination point of a wire, is the end point of the wire, whether it is connected to something or capped off.

It can't be said any clearer than this, if you are interpreting it as anything other than this, you are wrong. If you have any other evidence, other than inferring a definition other than what is written, I will be happy to look at it. Show me a written interpretation that in some way confirms your position that it is OK to bury the end of a live wire in a wall, nowhere have you shown that, you have just reiterated your personal definition of the word termination point.
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Old 05-29-2012, 12:35 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
Would you also argue with the police that pulled you over for the illegal U turn that they could not because you swung wide right before going left which caused your turn to be shaped like a P?
Why act childish? Is it because you mistakenly thought that a box with a splice in it couldn't be buried for safety reasons?
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We have shown numerous times that the word terminate or terminal can have differing meaning.
You haven't shown me that, I knew that since childhood vocabulary class.

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You choose to focus on only one of those.
Well, maybe more than one. However, as I said, not ALL of the definitions are applicable. We aren't using the definition "assassinate, kill" when we say terminate, right?


Quote:
I have replied with the common or dictionary usage of the word temination as being the endpoint of something.
Again, there are many definitions, not all of them apply. We know how the NEC defines the word because it's used hundreds of times. And, as I said, in none of those instances is it talking about the loose end of a wire. This is a FACT that you have ignored for the last 3 pages. Why not just admit to it?

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I don't believe you answered what you would call the finite endpoint of the cable if it is not a terminal end.
Not sure what you mean...? It's the end of the cable, but as far as the NEC, the cable is NOT terminated if it's loose and hanging in the air.
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Old 05-29-2012, 12:41 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k_buz View Post
Why can I not let this die.

The NEC DOES NOT amend the definition of termination point to mean something other than what the dictionary defines it as.
That's incorrect. The NEC does not use the word Termination to define the loose end of a wire in any of the hundreds of instances that it uses the word. I've said this 20 times but every time it's ignored. The NEC uses specific definitions of each word that it prints. Not all definitions apply. Like I said, the definition "assassinate, kill" is not the meaning of the word terminate when used in the NEC, just like the end of a loose wire is not the definition either.

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Therefore, whether you like it or not, the definition of termination point of a wire, is the end point of the wire, whether it is connected to something or capped off.
This is incorrect. Neither the NEC nor electricians use the word Termination to define the loose end of a wire. It just doesn't happen.
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It can't be said any clearer than this, if you are interpreting it as anything other than this, you are wrong.
No, you are wrong
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If you have any other evidence,
I've backed up my claim with evidence the entire time, while people won't even answer a simple question after asking it 20 times. Jeeze!

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Show me a written interpretation that in some way confirms your position
Show me a written interpretation of the word Terminate as used in the NEC that EVER means the loose end of a wire.

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that it is OK to bury the end of a live wire in a wall,
If it's not restricted, then it is OK to do.
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nowhere have you shown that, you have just reiterated your personal definition of the word termination point.
It's not my personal definition, it's the way that the NEC uses it. How many more times do I have to say that? Just the fact that I've said it 21 times now and you still say that it's "my personal definition" shows that you haven't followed along at all.

For the 22nd time, the NEC DOES NOT define the word Terminate as the end of a loose wire in ANY of the hundreds of times it's used. So why change the definition for this one time?
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Old 05-29-2012, 12:51 PM   #111
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I want to thank you guys. I checked the job specs of one of our big jobs and it says we have to "~make up all cable terminations for power, data, and antenna signal~".

After reading this thread I know that I can just cut the wires and call it done!!

If you don't mind, I'd like to have each one of your names and addresses so I can have the subpoena sent to you so you can come to court and defend us as expert witnesses when we get the crap sued out of us for breach of contract, thanks
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Old 05-29-2012, 12:54 PM   #112
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Lawyer: Were you at the party where the person was stabbed?

Yes, but I was in the bathroom at the time.

L: A yes or no answer only.

Yes

Makes quite a bit of difference when the context is not known or has been changed and is not allowed to be qualified.
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Old 05-29-2012, 12:55 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
Lawyer: Were you at the party where the person was stabbed?

Yes, but I was in the bathroom at the time.

L: A yes or no answer only.

Yes

Makes quite a bit of difference when the context is not known or has been changed and is not allowed to be qualified.
Context is great. And in the context of the NEC, the word terminate has NEVER been used to speak about the loose end of a wire, not in all the hundreds of time it's been used. Context
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Old 05-29-2012, 01:01 PM   #114
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Quote:
Not sure what you mean...? It's the end of the cable, but as far as the NEC, the cable is NOT terminated if it's loose and hanging in the air.
If I put tape or wire nuts on the end is the cable now terminated?

I don't see why it is so hard to see that not everything uses the NEC to define a word. Many times we need to revert to everyday English meanings.

While the intent or concept cannot be enforced, it will certainly be used in forming a decision should the AHJ be asked to make a ruling on the subject.
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Old 05-29-2012, 01:01 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macro View Post
Context is great. And in the context of the NEC, the word terminate has NEVER been used to speak about the loose end of a wire, not in all the hundreds of time it's been used. Context
You are correct, the word terminate is what you do to a loose end of a wire...and the end of a wire is the termination point of the wire...or the part of the wire you terminate.
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Old 05-29-2012, 01:05 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
If I put tape or wire nuts on the end is the cable now terminated?
How many times has this been discussed?
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I don't see why it is so hard to see that not everything uses the NEC to define a word. Many times we need to revert to everyday English meanings.
You are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. Not everything uses the NEC to define a word. Such as the movie Terminator, it's definitely not using the NEC's definition of the word, right?

However, the NEC uses the NEC to define the words And since we are talking about the NEC, i think it's very reasonable to go by it's own definitions.
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While the intent or concept cannot be enforced, it will certainly be used in forming a decision should the AHJ be asked to make a ruling on the subject.
You are 100% correct.
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Old 05-29-2012, 01:07 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k_buz View Post
You are correct, the word terminate is what you do to a loose end of a wire
Cool, we agree. When nothing is done to that loose end of the wire, it's not terminated.

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...and the end of a wire is the termination point of the wire...
Only if it has been terminated. If it hasn't been terminated, it's not the termination point.
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or the part of the wire you terminate.
Exactly, it needs to be terminated in order to be a termination point.
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Old 05-29-2012, 01:09 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macro View Post
That's incorrect. The NEC does not use the word Termination to define the loose end of a wire in any of the hundreds of instances that it uses the word. I've said this 20 times but every time it's ignored. The NEC uses specific definitions of each word that it prints. Not all definitions apply. Like I said, the definition "assassinate, kill" is not the meaning of the word terminate when used in the NEC, just like the end of a loose wire is not the definition either.
Ok....show us in the NEC where it defines the loose end of a wire....without using exclusionary logic.

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This is incorrect. Neither the NEC nor electricians use the word Termination to define the loose end of a wire. It just doesn't happen.
Wrong....I use it all the time....

Quote:
No, you are wrong
I've backed up my claim with evidence the entire time, while people won't even answer a simple question after asking it 20 times. Jeeze!
No....you have not backed up your claim. You have failed to show us in the NEC where it explicitly defines "loose end of a wire"

Your 'trying' to use exclusionary logic to show that the loose end of a wire is not terminated. Under the accepted/publised definitions of Terminate/Terminated/Termination....a loose wire is terminated.....

This is what a Thasaurus shows for 'terminate'

Synonyms break off, break up, close, conclude, dead-end, determine, die, discontinue, elapse,end, expire, finish, go, halt, lapse, leave off, let up, pass, quit, stop, terminate, wind up, wink (out)

So....according to the Webster Thesaurus....End is a synonym to Terminate.....so using non-lawyer logic....loose end of a wire would also mean 'terminate'.....

Any futher contrary conclusions you have to this logic will only confirm that you have no logic....
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Old 05-29-2012, 01:10 PM   #119
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Quote:
Would you also argue with the police that pulled you over for the illegal U turn that they could not because you swung wide right before going left which caused your turn to be shaped like a P?
Quote:
Why act childish? Is it because you mistakenly thought that a box with a splice in it couldn't be buried for safety reasons?
This is not acting childish. That example was purposely done to show how words can be twisted.

Show me where this is allowed. How about asking the professional sites like at Mike Holt or Electrician Talk?

You could also search this site for someone that also thought it was safe to bury a splice as there was no way for it to fail and was shown differently.
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Old 05-29-2012, 01:21 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddawg16 View Post
Ok....show us in the NEC where it defines the loose end of a wire....
Why would the loose end of a wire have to be defined? Isn't it clear enough already?

You're not an electrician, I can't expect you to know how the NEC works.

Quote:
Wrong....I use it all the time....
You're not an electrician nor do you know anything about the NEC.

And you do NOT use the word "termination" to describe the loose end of a wire, so stop lying...

Quote:
No....you have not backed up your claim. You have failed to show us in the NEC where it explicitly defines "loose end of a wire"
Again, why would I do that? What purpose would it be? Why would the NEC ever need to define a group of words that are very descriptive.

Here, I'll do it for you:

The loose end of a wire
Definition: The loose end of a wire.


Quote:
Your 'trying' to use exclusionary logic to show that the loose end of a wire is not terminated.
I'm using logic as well as common sense, context, and experience with the NEC. What are YOU using?
Quote:
Under the accepted/publised definitions of Terminate/Terminated/Termination....a loose wire is terminated.....
No, a loose wire is NOT terminated by the definition that the NEC uses.
Quote:
This is what a Thasaurus shows for 'terminate'
it doesn't make a difference what the thesaurus says, not ALL synonyms or definitions are applicable. Just like I said earlier, the NEC doesn't use the definition "Assassinate, Kill" to define the word Termination even tho the dictionary has that as one of the many definitions. What is so hard to understand about that?
Quote:
So....according to the Webster Thesaurus....End is a synonym to Terminate.....so using non-lawyer logic....loose end of a wire would also mean 'terminate'.....
No, it wouldn't. Not unless you are trying to say that when the NEC says "termination" they mean a killed or assassinated wire
Quote:
Any futher contrary conclusions you have to this logic will only confirm that you have no logic....
Yes, there it is You can't prove your side so you try to insult me

Even if I had no logic, I still hold a contractor's/master's license in NJ and NY so I certainly know the NEC, which is the only thing that matters in this discussion. Go find some wood to butcher

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