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Old 05-29-2012, 09:44 AM   #76
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I'll chime in......I just went through a UL class so we can become a UL panel shop.

I've been designing and building control panels and test equipment for about 30 some odd years now. I may not be up to speed on the NEC like some of you guys...but I most likely know a lot more about electricity than most of you guys.....

Pure and simple....where ever the wire STOPS...THAT is a termination point. How it is teminated can vary. It can be to another wire, it can be on a terminal block....it can be into a switch...outlet...thingamagig....what ever...if the wire stops....that is a termination point....

So enough of the banter on the use of "Termination"....

BTW....I really enjoyed it a few years ago when I found a loose NM cable in the wall that I opened up (my house)....and got zapped.....The previous owner took out an outlet and covered up the hole just leaving the wires inside.........no, he did not wire nut them.....so I assumed they were dead.....like, who would leave exposed live wires in a wall?

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Old 05-29-2012, 09:47 AM   #77
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Jim, please answer the question in post #71.

If the word is used hundreds upon hundreds of times and NEVER in any of those instances is it used in a way to define a loose end of a wire, why should we expect the definition to change for this one instance?
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Old 05-29-2012, 09:55 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by ddawg16 View Post
I'll chime in......I just went through a UL class so we can become a UL panel shop.

I've been designing and building control panels and test equipment for about 30 some odd years now. I may not be up to speed on the NEC like some of you guys...but I most likely know a lot more about electricity than most of you guys.....
This discussion is about the words of the law, specifically the NEC. You admitted yourself that you don't know much about the NEC. It's very nice that you know more about electricity than me and the others here, but that has nothing to do with this topic about law and wording of code.
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Pure and simple....where ever the wire STOPS...THAT is a termination point. How it is teminated can vary. It can be to another wire, it can be on a terminal block....it can be into a switch...outlet...thingamagig....what ever...if the wire stops....that is a termination point....
I'll ask you to answer my question in post #71 as well:

If the word is used hundreds upon hundreds of times and NEVER in any of those instances is it used in a way to define a loose end of a wire, why should we expect the definition to change for this one instance?

Since you said that you don't know too much about the NEC, I can't expect you to answer this. But again, the NEC is what this discussion is about.
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So enough of the banter on the use of "Termination"....
It's not banter, it's a discussion. I am FAR from the first person to say that the code doesn't restrict this practice and that a termination point does not mean a loose end of the wire by the code's definition. I may be the only person in this thread saying it, but I am not alone by any means.

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BTW....I really enjoyed it a few years ago when I found a loose NM cable in the wall that I opened up (my house)....and got zapped.....The previous owner took out an outlet and covered up the hole just leaving the wires inside.........no, he did not wire nut them.....so I assumed they were dead.....like, who would leave exposed live wires in a wall?
He should have taped them up. If he did, that wire would be no different than any of the other wires that fill up your walls.

Taping loose K&T wires up is a very commonly used practice. It's the different between a job costing hundreds and the same job costing thousands. The code doesn't restrict it nor is it dangerous.
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Old 05-29-2012, 10:00 AM   #79
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So your assertion is that that two live ends connected together are dangerous enough to require being in an accessible junction, but one end is not? Give it up.
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Old 05-29-2012, 10:05 AM   #80
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I know I said I wouldn't say more, but I want to know one simple thing...please don't answer this question with another question.

How can the termination point of a wire/cable be anything other than the end point(s) of that wire/cable?
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Old 05-29-2012, 10:06 AM   #81
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So your assertion is that that two live ends connected together are dangerous enough to require being in an accessible junction, but one end is not? Give it up.
No, there is no danger in a splice being buried. It's not allow for convenience of troubleshooting. I mentioned this earlier in the thread and it's also a pretty well know fact.

I am not going to "give it up". If you don't like my opinion, that is fine. But I find it funny that you chose to be rude while ignoring the question I asked you multiple times. That's what people usually do when they are loosing an argument
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Old 05-29-2012, 10:14 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by k_buz View Post
I know I said I wouldn't say more, but I want to know one simple thing...please don't answer this question with another question.

How can the termination point of a wire/cable be anything other than the end point(s) of that wire/cable?
For some reason you are playing a game here. You asked that question earlier, but you asked it after I asked you a few questions- that you conveniently ignored. You even quoted my questions, but you didn't answer them. Instead you chose to ask your own question, and now you are being repugnant in telling me not to answer a question with a question after you just did it yourself.

So, would you like me to play your game too? I'll happily answer your question after you answer mine:

I still defy you to give me one other example (either in code or normal electrical nomenclature) of the loose hanging end of a wire being defined as a termination point. Since you said that is the common definition of it, you should have no problem citing many, many examples.
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Old 05-29-2012, 10:15 AM   #83
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A termination point IS the end of a wire. A terminal block is where a bunch of wired ends and either connect to other wires, or end. To terminate a circuit is to end the wiring at a OCPD or the load. Terminations can either connect to something or they can be the capped ends of wires.

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Old 05-29-2012, 10:18 AM   #84
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Where did you ask me a question where I didn't answer?
#72 is your post where you quote the question but don't answer it. In post #82 I asked the question again and you didn't answer it.
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Old 05-29-2012, 10:22 AM   #85
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see my above answer
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Old 05-29-2012, 10:25 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Macro View Post
No, there is no danger in a splice being buried. It's not allow for convenience of troubleshooting. I mentioned this earlier in the thread and it's also a pretty well know fact.

I am not going to "give it up". If you don't like my opinion, that is fine. But I find it funny that you chose to be rude while ignoring the question I asked you multiple times. That's what people usually do when they are loosing an argument
The word of the law in this case is how the AHJ interprets the NEC and any inspector need only look at that ROP and you are red tagged.

Appeal to the AHJ and if he/she says that the end of the cable is a termination point as meant in that ROP, case closed.

Who are you going to take this argument to then?

Last edited by Code05; 05-29-2012 at 10:31 AM.
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Old 05-29-2012, 10:25 AM   #87
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Your edited post:

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A termination point IS the end of a wire.
No, it's not. In no instance is a termination defined as the end of a wire in any of the hundreds of times the word is used in the NEC. There is nothing to say that the definition has changed in that one instance that you say it changed.
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A terminal block is where a bunch of wired ends and either connect to other wires, or end.
Yes, every wire is terminated into the block. If a wire was hanging loose near the block, it would not be terminated.
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To terminate a circuit is to end the wiring at a OCPD or the load.
Exactly.
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Terminations can either connect to something or then can be the capped ends of wires.
Capped ends of wires are not terminations. The end of a wire is not defined as a termination in any of the hundreds of places that the word is used in the code, nor in real life electrical nomenclature. Again, I'll ask the question: if the word is used hundreds upon hundreds of times and NEVER in any of those instances is it used in a way to define a loose end of a wire, why should we expect the definition to change for this one instance?
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Old 05-29-2012, 10:27 AM   #88
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The word of the law in this case is how the AHJ interprets the NEC and any inspector need only look at that ROP and you are red tagged.
I disagree. Not all inspectors will red tag it. As I mentioned, it is very common to tape off K&T wiring. Maybe it's just a regional thing, you may not have as many old houses as we do in this area. But we can't go assuming what all inspectors will do.

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Who are you going to take this argument then?
I've never had an argument in real life since it's always been acceptable. I've had discussions online, this is the only time that other people got so heated about it tho
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Old 05-29-2012, 10:28 AM   #89
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Your edited post:

No, it's not. In no instance is a termination defined as the end of a wire in any of the hundreds of times the word is used in the NEC.
If the termination point of a wire isn't the end of the wire...where is the termination point of a wire?
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Old 05-29-2012, 10:30 AM   #90
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If the termination point of a wire isn't the end of the wire...where is the termination point of a wire?
The termination point of a wire is where the wire is terminated. If the wire is not terminated, there is no termination point.
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Where did you ask me a question where I didn't answer?
You ignored the question in post #87 yet again

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