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Old 05-29-2012, 09:54 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Macro View Post
That is not clear in the code, it's just an assumption. In no other instance in the code or any part of electrical "lingo" is a "termination" a loose wire that isn't connected to anything, so my assuming is going in the opposite direction of your's.
This is where we differ...I think YOU are the one using "electrical lingo". The NEC doesn't specifically define termination, therefore you would have to use the common definition...

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termination [ˌtɜːmɪˈneɪʃən]n1. the act of terminating or the state of being terminated
2. something that terminates
3. a final resultterminational adj

Quote:
ter·mi·nate (tūrm-nt)v. ter·mi·nat·ed, ter·mi·nat·ing, ter·mi·nates
v.tr.1. To bring to an end or halt:
2. To occur at or form the end of; conclude or finish:
3. To discontinue the employment of; dismiss:

v.intr.1. To come to an end:

2. To have as an end or result

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Old 05-29-2012, 09:54 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Code05 View Post
What about it? That question and answer is not discussing what I said about the bathroom earlier in the thread.

That question and answer at your link is discussing what other outlets can be put on the required 20A bathroom circuit. What I said was that additional circuits can be added to the bathroom, and those circuits can be shared with other rooms and be 15A. As I mentioned, once the requirement of 210.11(C)(3) is met there is no other restriction or requirement when it comes to adding receptacles in the bathroom. So if a customer wants a receptacle to power a TV in his bathroom, it would be perfectly legal to come out of a 15A bedroom receptacle on the opposite side of that wall.
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Old 05-29-2012, 09:57 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by k_buz View Post
This is where we differ.
And we probably always will.
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This is where we differ...I think YOU are the one using "electrical lingo".
That's true, I am looking at every avenue. Other instances in the code, normal use in the field, etc. And in absolutely zero of those other examples does a termination point mean a loose, hanging, disconnected wire.

It amazes me that they can add a change to the code to clear up confusion, when that very change itself is not clear. Yet, they have no problem spelling out in great detail many changes that lead to the manufacturers making more money

Last edited by Macro; 05-29-2012 at 10:03 AM.
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Old 05-29-2012, 10:04 AM   #64
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Maybe its not spelled out word for word, because it is common sense. If you can't run a single live cable to a box and bury said box, then you can't just remove that box and leave that live cable buried in the wall.

Or maybe it is spelled out word for word by the "termination point" in 300.15 and you just refuse to accept the common definition of termination point.

I still defy you to give me an example of any termination point is anything other that is not an end point of a wire or cable.
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Old 05-29-2012, 10:08 AM   #65
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Do we really need to get all Clintonesque about the meaning of termination? The NEC does not define many words, but does use the dictionary definitions on commonly used words.

Related to TERMINATION

Synonyms: bound, boundary, cap, ceiling, confines, end, extent, limitation, line, limit
Antonyms: alpha, beginning, birth, commencement, creation, dawn, genesis, inception, incipience, incipiency, launch, morning, onset, outset, start
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Old 05-29-2012, 10:09 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macro View Post
And we probably always will.
That's true, I am looking at every avenue. Other instances in the code, normal use in the field, etc. And in absolutely zero of those other examples does a termination point mean a loose, hanging, disconnected wire.

It amazes me that they can add a change to the code to clear up confusion, when that very change itself is not clear. Yet, they have no problem spelling out in great detail many changes that lead to the manufacturers making more money
We aren't talking about a "DISCONNECTED" wire. We are talking about a wire that is either live or still connected to a switch. Or are we arguing two different situations?
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Old 05-29-2012, 10:12 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by k_buz View Post
Maybe its not spelled out word for word, because it is common sense.
Common sense has nothing to do with electrical code. Code is explained in great detail, not left up to common sense. If common sense was expected, the code would be half it's size.

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If you can't run a single live cable to a box and bury said box, then you can't just remove that box and leave that live cable buried in the wall.
Why can't you do either?
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Or maybe it is spelled out word for word by the "termination point" in 300.15 and you just refuse to accept the common definition of termination point.
I've said this 7 or 8 times already, so I can't see how you can possibly call a loose, hanging, disconnected wire the "common definition of a termination point". That is simply nonsense.
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I still defy you to give me an example of any termination point is anything other that is not an end point of a wire or cable.
I don't know if there are a few typos or what, but your question doesn't make sense.

I still defy you to give me one other example (either in code or normal electrical nomenclature) of a loose, hanging, disconnected wire being defined as a termination point. Since you said that is the common definition of it, you should have no problem citing many, many examples
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Old 05-29-2012, 10:12 AM   #68
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I thought this was about a live cable fed from a switch and the fixture had been removed. Some were saying it was OK to bury the live end in the wall.
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Old 05-29-2012, 10:13 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by k_buz View Post
We aren't talking about a "DISCONNECTED" wire. We are talking about a wire that is either live or still connected to a switch. Or are we arguing two different situations?
The end of the wire that we are speaking about is not connected to anything, so it is disconnected. The other end of the wire is connected to something, yes, but not the end in question.
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Old 05-29-2012, 10:21 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macro View Post
The end of the wire that we are speaking about is not connected to anything, so it is disconnected. The other end of the wire is connected to something, yes, but not the end in question.
This is the whole point of this. Using commonly defined terms that makes the end a termination point. It does not continue past this end. Article 300.15 includes termination points as needing to be accessible.

If you were to removed the switch end of the cable from the box this would be a properly abandoned cable, but not with one end still connected and energized.
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Old 05-29-2012, 10:26 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
Do we really need to get all Clintonesque about the meaning of termination? The NEC does not define many words, but does use the dictionary definitions on commonly used words.

Related to TERMINATION

Synonyms: bound, boundary, cap, ceiling, confines, end, extent, limitation, line, limit
Antonyms: alpha, beginning, birth, commencement, creation, dawn, genesis, inception, incipience, incipiency, launch, morning, onset, outset, start
I just searched the 2008 NEC PDF for the word "Termination"*. There are 129 pages that have that word on it, some of the pages have the word 2, 3, or even up to 6 times. That means the word is used many hundreds of times in the NEC.

Out of hundreds of times the word has been used in the code, can you show an example of just one time that it is used to define a loose hanging wire not connected to anything on that end?

Can you show where it is used in normal electrical speak?

Out of the hundreds of times it's used in the code and the millions of times it's used in electrical discussions, if it's never used to define the loose end of a cable, why should we change the definition for that one instance?

The loose end of a wire is actually the exact polar opposite of what most electrician would consider "terminated".



* I only searched for the word "Termination". I did not search for "terminate" or any other variant. If I did, I'm sure there would be hundreds of more instances where it's used.
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Old 05-29-2012, 10:27 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Macro View Post
Common sense has nothing to do with electrical code. Code is explained in great detail, not left up to common sense. If common sense was expected, the code would be half it's size.

Why can't you do either?
I've said this 7 or 8 times already, so I can't see how you can possibly call a loose, hanging, disconnected wire the "common definition of a termination point". That is simply nonsense.

I don't know if there are a few typos or what, but your question doesn't make sense.

I still defy you to give me one other example (either in code or normal electrical nomenclature) of a loose, hanging, disconnected wire being defined as a termination point. Since you said that is the common definition of it, you should have no problem citing many, many examples
This is my last post in this thread because I'm beginning to think you are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

1) 314.29 Boxes, Conduit Bodies, and Handhole Enclosures
to Be Accessible. Boxes, conduit bodies, and handhole
enclosures shall be installed so that the wiring contained
in them can be rendered accessible without removing
any part of the building or, in underground circuits, without
excavating sidewalks, paving, earth, or other substance that
is to be used to establish the finished grade.

2) You are not describing a disconnected wire. A wire has two ends, each being a termination point or end point. If one of the endpoints is connected to a live circuit (switched or unswitched) this is a connected wire.

3) A loose wire in the wall is not a termination point, the ends of those loose wires, whether in a box or not, are the termination points or end points.

4)I still defy you to give me an example of any termination point that could be looked at as anything other than an end point of a wire or cable. (Reworded)
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Old 05-29-2012, 10:31 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
This is the whole point of this. Using commonly defined terms that makes the end a termination point. It does not continue past this end. Article 300.15 includes termination points as needing to be accessible.

If you were to removed the switch end of the cable from the box this would be a properly abandoned cable, but not with one end still connected and energized.
That's the thing, I don't see this as the commonly defined definition, as I mentioned, it's actually the opposite of what we commonly use as the definition.

You know as well as I do that to terminate is to land the wires or connect them in some way. In no instance in electrical work does terminate mean to leave the wires hanging. Right or wrong?
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Old 05-29-2012, 10:32 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by k_buz View Post
This is my last post in this thread because I'm beginning to think you are just arguing for the sake of arguing.
Then I will end the discussion with you right here. You haven't answered my questions, you repeated the same things over and over even tho I explained why they didn't apply, and now you are trying to insult me. Good day
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Old 05-29-2012, 10:43 AM   #75
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You are playing on two definitions of terminate, but taking one out of context. Yes, it would be considered to terminate the wires on a breaker while cutting in a panel. This does not mean that the physical end of the cable is not a terminal point.

I can't think of one inspector that would validate your viewpoint. If it is energized it goes into an accessible junction box.

I am sure this would be flagged for repair by an HI if they saw the free end of an energized cable flying in the breeze. I know that they have no legal standing, but am using this as an example that a person with some knowledge of correct procedures and codes would recognize this as improper. I know you are also going to bring up they will not see it if it is buried. If a flying end is not ok in sticking out of the wall or attic space burying it behind a surface does not change anything other than accessiblity.

Would you think it ok to hide a junction point in a box behind a cabinet?

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