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Old 05-28-2012, 08:54 PM   #31
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it really depends on the inspector. or the next inspector. or the one ten years or twenty years down the road when you sell your house.


Odds are most all of them would prohibit a buried end of a live wire, whether terminated or dangling or wrapped in a pretty pink bow.

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Old 05-28-2012, 09:38 PM   #32
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I thought you did agree D, but I thought the others did not and was looking to see other thoughts.
I just don't see it as a violation, OR better yet, a safety concern, it's not like the electrons are just going to flow out of the end of the wire, and fill up the wall cavity... think about it, you have NM type cable run all over the house, all that protects it is a tiny jacket, now we strip a piece of that jacket and someone has a problem with it in the wall? come on....
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Old 05-28-2012, 10:17 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by stickboy1375 View Post
I just don't see it as a violation, OR better yet, a safety concern, it's not like the electrons are just going to flow out of the end of the wire, and fill up the wall cavity... think about it, you have NM type cable run all over the house, all that protects it is a tiny jacket, now we strip a piece of that jacket and someone has a problem with it in the wall? come on....
Tell you what, I will do a MH search-or PM Chris/Raider1, tomorrow and see what he says.

I will post results. Fair enough? I am willing to abide by his opinion/ruling.
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Old 05-28-2012, 10:27 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by stickboy1375 View Post
I just don't see it as a violation, OR better yet, a safety concern, it's not like the electrons are just going to flow out of the end of the wire, and fill up the wall cavity... think about it, you have NM type cable run all over the house, all that protects it is a tiny jacket, now we strip a piece of that jacket and someone has a problem with it in the wall? come on....
I have see the simauir situation in France ( that where I am now ) and with the end of run engerized conductor you can leave them in the box but if someone want to take it the box off they have to find where is the supply source and disconnect it and that end of run box you can chunk it out without issue.

Merci,
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Old 05-29-2012, 02:50 AM   #35
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So let me pose this, a live splice would need to be in an accessible junction box, but a live deadended cable in a box could be buried?

I certainly don't think that is the intent.
I agree that it might not be the intent of the code. But in my opinion it is allowed because I do not see anything restricting it.

It's similar to the way that the code only requires one of the receptacles in a bathroom to be 20A, the rest can be 15A. I don't believe that is the intent, but that's the way it's written.

The CMP spends way too much time dealing with the manufacturer's lobbyists and not enough time making small and simple things clear.
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Old 05-29-2012, 05:52 AM   #36
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I agree that it might not be the intent of the code. But in my opinion it is allowed because I do not see anything restricting it.

It's similar to the way that the code only requires one of the receptacles in a bathroom to be 20A, the rest can be 15A. I don't believe that is the intent, but that's the way it's written.

The CMP spends way too much time dealing with the manufacturer's lobbyists and not enough time making small and simple things clear.
I agree, the NEC is a permissive document, so if clearly doesn't say, no dead ends in wall, then its legal. IMO.
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Old 05-29-2012, 07:36 AM   #37
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I agree, the NEC is a permissive document, so if clearly doesn't say, no dead ends in wall, then its legal. IMO.

Nope. Although Jim port gets the cookie, it is "termination point" in 300.15 that says no. It was added to the 2002 just for this situation.

Here is a thread where Bob concedes to Dennis on this point.

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=122090

and here is the ROP:

3- 83 - (300-15(a)): Accept in Principle
SUBMITTER: Robert H. Keis, Dover, DE
RECOMMENDATION: Insert the words "termination point" into
the required locations or points where a box is required.
300-15. Boxes, Conduit Bodies, or Fittings—Where Required.
(a) Box or Conduit Body. Where the wiring method is
conduit, electrical metallic tubing, Type AC cable, Type MC
cable, Type MI cable, nonmetallic-sheathed cable, or other
cables, a box or conduit body complying with Article 370 shall be
installed at each conductor splice point, outlet, switch point,
junction point, termination point, or pull point, unless otherwise
permitted in (b) through (n). A box shall be installed at each
outlet and switch point for concealed knob-and-tube wiring.
SUBSTANTIATION: The argument has come up recently about
just taping the ends of an abandoned, but usable cable and
leaving the cable end buried in a wall or laying in a ceiling.
Nowhere in the code can I find a requirement that abandoned
cables need to be removed and a lot of times that would be
needless expense. Often cables are discontinued for one reason
or another and may or could be utilized again in the future. This
will settle a long standing argument. We tell the electrician when
he violates the code to "read the words." He did just that, and
that is reason for this proposal. The words aren't there!
PANEL ACTION: Accept in Principle.
PANEL STATEMENT: See panel action on Proposal 3-81.
However, truly abandoned wires should not remain energized or
connected to a possible source of potential.
NUMBER OF PANEL MEMBERS ELIGIBLE TO VOTE: 11
VOTE ON PANEL ACTION:
AFFIRMATIVE: 11
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Old 05-29-2012, 07:36 AM   #38
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So, you are saying (in all seriousness) that you have to have a junction box with one cable in it (capped off) accessible, but you can just wirenut a loose, live cable and leave it in the wall?
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Old 05-29-2012, 07:41 AM   #39
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Wow, I have been to IAEI meetings with Bob K. Small world.

KBuz, who is that addressed to?
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Old 05-29-2012, 07:45 AM   #40
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Macro, Stickboy, any anyone else trying to argue that single live cables can be left live in a inaccessible location.
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Old 05-29-2012, 07:52 AM   #41
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Thanks for the clarification KB.
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Old 05-29-2012, 08:03 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k_buz View Post
So, you are saying (in all seriousness) that you have to have a junction box with one cable in it (capped off) accessible, but you can just wirenut a loose, live cable and leave it in the wall?
Quote:
Originally Posted by k_buz View Post
Macro, Stickboy, any anyone else trying to argue that single live cables can be left live in a inaccessible location.
Yes, I am saying it in all seriousness.

Your walls are filled with live cables.

I still haven't seen where it's not permitted by electrical code. And I maintain that a "termination" is most certainly not a loose wire.

In no other part of the electrical code nor in normal electrical nomenclature is the word "termination" or the act of "terminating" referring to letting a loose wire hang freely.

Last edited by Macro; 05-29-2012 at 08:13 AM.
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Old 05-29-2012, 08:11 AM   #43
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300.15 Boxes, Conduit Bodies, or Fittings —Where Required.
A box shall be installed at each outlet and switch
point for concealed knob-and-tube wiring.
Fittings and connectors shall be used only with the specific
wiring methods for which they are designed and listed.
Where the wiring method is conduit, tubing, Type AC
cable, Type MC cable, Type MI cable, nonmetallic-sheathed
cable, or other cables, a box or conduit body shall be installed
at each conductor splice point, outlet point, switch point, junction
point, termination point, or pull point, unless otherwise
permitted in 300.15(A) through (L).

Now, I know you are going to argue the definition of termination point, but with the other examples listed in this code rule, I don't see how it can be interpreted any other way that a cable dead-ended.
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Old 05-29-2012, 08:13 AM   #44
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The difference is that the endpoint is accessible if it is in a box. The ends of the energized cables are in boxes.

Macro, you are going to need to explain this one too.

Quote:
It's similar to the way that the code only requires one of the receptacles in a bathroom to be 20A, the rest can be 15A. I don't believe that is the intent, but that's the way it's written.
The receptacle does not have to be 20 amps, the circuit it is on needs to be 20 amps.

There have also been discussions about having a 15 amp holiday lighting circuit in a bathroom under the windows. IIRC the general opinion was that that was not allowed. Article 210 says the bathroom receptacles need to be served by a 20 amp circuit.
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Old 05-29-2012, 08:16 AM   #45
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Wow, I have been to IAEI meetings with Bob K. Small world.
I was curious if you might know the guy when I saw the location.

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