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Old 05-29-2012, 01:37 PM   #136
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The ROP was never posted in the thread you are referencing, I don't know this for sure, but maybe Marc would have sung a different tune if he had all the information?

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Old 05-29-2012, 01:43 PM   #137
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The ROP was never posted in the thread you are referencing, I don't know this for sure, but maybe Marc would have sung a different tune if he had all the information?
I think Marc was pretty clear on his interpretation of the word "termination".

Again, the ROP is meaningless in this discussion. I conceded on the second page that the intention may have been to restrict it, but the written word does NOT. I also gave another example of intention being different than the written word when citing that you can install receptacles on a 15A general purpose circuit in the bathroom.

This is FAR from the first time that the CMP has had to clear up a stupid code entry that could be interpreted many different ways.
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Old 05-29-2012, 01:44 PM   #138
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Ok....I see what is going on.....Marco is just using this to get his post count up.....
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Old 05-29-2012, 01:46 PM   #139
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This was my question....

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Originally Posted by k_buz View Post
Is it legal to remove a sconce from a box, cover that box, and bury it in the wall if it only contained one 14-2 NM cable?
This was your reply...

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Originally Posted by Macro View Post
Welcome to the first page!!

Everything is legal unless it is specified as being not allowed by the NEC (provided your jurisdiction goes by the NEC and doesn't have any other amendments about this issue).

So the burden is on you to show where the NEC doesn't allow you to do that. If you can't show that, then it is allowed.
If you think the situation in my question is legal because the NEC doesn't specify, you are dead wrong...314.29.

Now that we got that cleared up, why would it be against code to bury a box with one 14-2 NM in it, but legal to bury a 14-2 NM without a box on it. Please, give me one logical reason.
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Old 05-29-2012, 01:47 PM   #140
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Here is a quote from Marc Shunk, Moderator and founder of this forum's sister site Electriciantalk.com:
I thought Nathan was the owner or founder of both sites.

Regardless the only opinion that matters is the one from the CMP and they said a box is required.

You will also note that Marc said he was picking the one he agreed with. Just becuase you agree with something does not negate the fact that others may not see it your way.
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Old 05-29-2012, 01:48 PM   #141
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Ok....I see what is going on.....Marco is just using this to get his post count up.....
Wow, at least this time you didn't try to brag about your credentials (or lack thereof when it comes to this topic). But thanks for the participation in this thread, it has been great.

If at any time you choose to actually respond to my posts that refuted everything you said, feel free.

Until then, you can keep ignorantly spewing nonsense on topics you don't understand because your long list of achievements in the electrical world (member of a DIY forum for 8 months and some work on your own house) surely make you qualified to interprete code.

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Old 05-29-2012, 01:51 PM   #142
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I thought Nathan was the owner or founder of both sites.
Marc went to Nathan to talk about opening an electrical forum and Nathan started it up and put Marc in control.
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Regardless the only opinion that matters is the one from the CMP and they said a box is required.
I disagree. My jurisdiction goes by the NEC, not the CMP. The CMP's intentions don't count, the written word does.

I understand that you are going to say that the CMP writes the NEC and all that. But in the end, the NEC is adopted and what is written in it when it's adopted is all that counts.
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You will also note that Marc said he was picking the one he agreed with. Just becuase you agree with something does not negate the fact that others may not see it your way.
EXACTLY!!! I have said from the beginning that my opinion differs from yours, have I not? I've said that multiple times. Jeeze...

The problem here is that code should NEVER be left up to opinion. Not when it's using a word that no where else in the NEC nor in electrical nomenclature is it used to mean the loose end of a wire. But ddawg16 said that he uses the word termination to mean the end of a loose wire all the time, so I guess this issue is settled.

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Originally Posted by Macro View Post
Neither the NEC nor electricians use the word Termination to define the loose end of a wire. It just doesn't happen.
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Originally Posted by ddawg16 View Post
Wrong....I use it all the time....


Last edited by Macro; 05-29-2012 at 02:02 PM.
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Old 05-29-2012, 01:55 PM   #143
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but legal to bury a 14-2 NM without a box on it. Please, give me one logical reason.
Because the code does not prohibit it. And if the code doesn't prohibit it, it's legal and perfectly acceptable to do. You know this, you are just looking to argue.

That is not only logical, it is an indisputable FACT. It's not an opinion, if the code doesn't prohibit something, it is legal. Fact, fact, fact.
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Old 05-29-2012, 02:07 PM   #144
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That is the part you aren't grasping either from ignorance or stubbornness. It IS specifically prohibited when the NEC states that the termination points need to be in a box.

Just because an electrician doesn't interpret termination point to mean what the actual definition of termination point is, doesn't make the situation legal.

You have been provided with written evidence that what you are proposing is against code (the ROP), you show us one thing from someone of authority in the electrical field that supports your claim. If you can do that, I will concede that this issue will be up the discretion of the AHJ.
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Old 05-29-2012, 02:15 PM   #145
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That is the part you aren't grasping either from ignorance or stubbornness. It IS specifically prohibited when the NEC states that the termination points need to be in a box.
Again, I disagree. I interpret it differently than you. There are many other people who feel the same way. You can call me ignorant or stubborn, but that doesn't make your opinion any more valid than mine. I can call you ignorant and stubborn the same way.
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Just because an electrician doesn't interpret termination point to mean what the actual definition of termination point is, doesn't make the situation legal.
Yes, it does. The wording is up for interpretation. Now YOU are saying that the "actual definition of termination point" is the end of the wire, but that is not automatically true. I can say that the actual definition of a termination point is a point in which the wire was assassinated or killed. I would be using one of the definitions of the word the same as you did. But in the real world, we have to use the word in proper context and figure out it's true definition in other ways. It seems perfectly reasonable to look at the other 500 times the word is used in the NEC to figure out how the NEC wants to use the word, now doesn't it?

That's where i am coming from, if you can't understand that we have a difference of opinion than I don't know what more to say.
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You have been provided with written evidence that what you are proposing is against code (the ROP),
FALSE. It is only against code if the code prohibits it. The way it is written, I don't see it as being prohibited. I have said this 15 times now.
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you show us one thing from someone of authority in the electrical field that supports your claim.
I've already posted links to other threads and you are free to do all the searching you want. There are MANY other people that feel the same way I do, I even posted quotes in this thread. Just because you have a comprehension problem, it doesn't mean that I have proven my side.
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If you can do that, I will concede that this issue will be up the discretion of the AHJ.
EVERYTHING is already up to the discretion of the AHJ. Are you arguing THAT too? Have you not read 90.4??????????????
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Old 05-29-2012, 02:37 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by Macro View Post
Wow, at least this time you didn't try to brag about your credentials (or lack thereof when it comes to this topic). But thanks for the participation in this thread, it has been great.

If at any time you choose to actually respond to my posts that refuted everything you said, feel free.

Until then, you can keep ignorantly spewing nonsense on topics you don't understand because your long list of achievements in the electrical world (member of a DIY forum for 8 months and some work on your own house) surely make you qualified to interprete code.

Yea....your right.....I don't know what I'm talking about....I just design the controls for things like this....



and this...



The fact that the panels are UL compliant doesn't mean anything....and all the field wiring is per NEC....including all terminated and un-terminated wiring....and all those spare wires that are just coiled up and stored in a box....

Nope...I don't know anything.....
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Old 05-29-2012, 02:53 PM   #147
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Yea....your right.....I don't know what I'm talking about....I just design the controls for things like this....
Again, that means NOTHING. You are only doing it to bolster your own ego because you are an arrogant fool. From the second you stepped into this thread you bragged about how much more you know than everyone else. Give it up already, NO ONE is impressed.

You can show me that you are a brain surgeon, or an astronaut, or a physicist. It doesn't matter because none of those professions, just like yours, have anything to do with the NEC.

I'm starting to question the validity of your assertions as to how smart you are, since you can't understand simple, basic English. Once again, you don't know jack about the NEC (as you admitted), so you are not qualified to tell me what a word that is used hundreds of times in it means. The same way as I am not going to come to you and argue with you about what that big shiny thing in the picture is.
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The fact that the panels are UL compliant doesn't mean anything..
No, it doesn't. Taking a UL compliance course does not teach you the NEC in any way, shape, or form. I have wired up plenty of control panels, and I will never say that doing so has taught me about the NEC. You are arguing an absolutely STUPID point.

Quote:
including all terminated and un-terminated wiring....
All wire has 2 ends so all wire has to be terminated. Or at least that is what you say, right?


Quote:
Nope...I don't know anything.....
Agreed, you don't know anything about this topic, as you mentioned when you said you don't know much about the NEC. Quit backpedaling.
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Old 05-29-2012, 02:56 PM   #148
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Fellas at this point we are being trolled by some ET guy that cannot make it at MH. I am done. Bye Macaroni.

Dude, if ET is your only source, I feel sorry for ya.
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Old 05-29-2012, 02:59 PM   #149
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I don't even think Cletis would troll this hard.
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Old 05-29-2012, 03:00 PM   #150
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For people looking at this thread for information (not that I think they would read all this crap to get to this point) abandoning a live wire in a wall or ceiling is not standard practice. If this was done, any inspector would require that live ends of a cable be dead-ended in a box.

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