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Old 07-05-2013, 02:53 PM   #16
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Help with tapped sub panel.


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The difference in service rated and non-service rated is the center off position.

These switches don't have any OCP but have the center off position and are listed for use as service equipment.

I just got in a disagreement on another forum because I would think it needs some sort of OCP. Just isn't always what I think...lol
what about 230.208?????

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Old 07-05-2013, 02:58 PM   #17
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Help with tapped sub panel.


I totally agree and it seems like it's "equipment on the line side of the service" in which a generator ain't one of them that's allowed.

I've talked to some local inspectors about it also and they said they would allow since it's close to the meter and "service disconnects".

I was like "SOB, if I 'd had known that I'd be using those instead of what I've been using".
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Old 07-05-2013, 03:00 PM   #18
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Help with tapped sub panel.


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I totally agree and it seems like it's "equipment on the line side of the service" in which a generator ain't one of them that's allowed.

I've talked to some local inspectors about it also and they said they would allow since it's close to the meter and "service disconnects".

I was like "SOB, if I 'd had known that I'd be using those instead of what I've been using".
You can't do it, it's a clear violation.
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Old 07-05-2013, 03:01 PM   #19
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Help with tapped sub panel.


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Originally Posted by wirenut1110 View Post
I totally agree and it seems like it's "equipment on the line side of the service" in which a generator ain't one of them that's allowed.

I've talked to some local inspectors about it also and they said they would allow since it's close to the meter and "service disconnects".

I was like "SOB, if I 'd had known that I'd be using those instead of what I've been using".
Every service rated ATS i've ever installed comes with a circuit breaker.... its pretty obvious why.
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Old 07-05-2013, 03:08 PM   #20
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Help with tapped sub panel.


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I've talked to some local inspectors about it also and they said they would allow since it's close to the meter and "service disconnects".
And I guarantee they are NOT the AHJ and should not be allowing this.
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Old 07-05-2013, 03:08 PM   #21
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Help with tapped sub panel.


Here's a PDF on the Ronk switches. Very similar to his, his looks like a GE.

http://www.ronkelectrical.com/pdfste...RRITE%20GL.pdf

Notice the switches rated SUSE because of the center off position.
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Old 07-05-2013, 03:15 PM   #22
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Help with tapped sub panel.


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Here's a PDF on the Ronk switches. Very similar to his, his looks like a GE.

http://www.ronkelectrical.com/pdfste...RRITE%20GL.pdf

Notice the switches rated SUSE because of the center off position.
I know, I was just questioning the fact if it was service rated, it would make sense that the "OFF" position would indicate that, and i did forget the OCP can be after, but it needs to be 'immediately adjacent too' so whatever that means...
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Old 07-06-2013, 06:57 AM   #23
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Help with tapped sub panel.


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This is your best bet, with what your trying to do.

Also, you couldn't "tap" that with #6's anyway.

Just because this isn't inspected doesn't mean you shouldn't do it right.
Just to understand, why couldn't I use #6 if it is just feeding a 20 amp breaker in a box right next to it? I know normally you can't drop wire size (based on opd rating), but I heard rules are different for "taps." Again, not challenging you, just want to understand.
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Old 07-06-2013, 07:57 AM   #24
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Help with tapped sub panel.


I'll try to answer this, hopefully someone that's more in tune with all the wording and definitions of the code can verify, clarify, or deny this.

Maybe I'll learn something with this discussion.

The conductors feeding this disconnect are tapped conductors. You can't tap a tap.

The conductors after this breaker is a branch circuit, and the conductors need to be sized according to the OCPD with exceptions like motors, hvac equipment, etc.

To me, this would be no different than having a junction box with, let's say, #10 conductors in it and splicing a #14 wire to it and call it a "tap".
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Old 07-06-2013, 08:32 AM   #25
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Help with tapped sub panel.


I've said this before, but I'll say it again, the tap rules confuse the hell out of me, but I found this to be useful and it appears that he could tap 6's off the load side of the 100A.

http://ecmweb.com/code-basics/unders...es-feeder-taps
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Old 07-06-2013, 08:39 AM   #26
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Help with tapped sub panel.


I read the same thing before posting.

In some of the wording, it appears to be ok then, after reading into some other articles and definitions it appears to be not ok.
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Old 07-07-2013, 04:03 PM   #27
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Help with tapped sub panel.


Ok, K Buzz has me asking if my plan to tap off the load end of that would work. They trimmed those conductors, but they're way bigger than 6, do I just need big split bolts and doesn't matter that the tap line is thinner?
With regards to "can't tap a tap," I agree, but would it still have protection if tapped to the load side of that 100 amp? And this confuses me, if anything after the transfer switch is a tap...which can't be tapped, why are there a couple mercury lights tapped from the load sides of those disconnects? I just want another one (except I'll do a flood and thought if I did a 2 space panel with a 20 amp breaker, I could do a plug and the flood. If they can tap for mercury lights from the load side of the 100 amp disconnect, I still don't understand why I can't add at least the light (75 w.) finally, regarding the discoloration on the lines into that far left disconnect, is it possible the installer just didn't use anti-ox? (All those panels were professionally installed.)
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Old 07-08-2013, 08:34 PM   #28
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Help with tapped sub panel.


More help, please. Some conflicting (apparently) answers.
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Old 07-09-2013, 02:27 AM   #29
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Help with tapped sub panel.


Can you post pictures of the 100A disconnect on the right? Especially of the whole box with the cover off? Being physically bigger it has more room for legal splices(taps). And it may not be a scary train wreck like the one on the left.

You could use outdoor listed Liquidtight Flexible Nonmetallic Conduit (LFNC-B = Carflex) and easily route it over the top of the main. You could mount a four space panel to the right of the main and be in business.
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Originally Posted by ericmunyon12345 View Post
Ok, K Buzz has me asking if my plan to tap off the load end of that would work. They trimmed those conductors, but they're way bigger than 6, do I just need big split bolts and doesn't matter that the tap line is thinner?
Split bolts have wire size ranges embossed on them. If the large conductor and the small conductor fall within those ranges, you are good to go. They are also embossed AL, CU or AL/Cu. Use only split bolts for the type of wire you have.
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...why are there a couple mercury lights tapped from the load sides of those disconnects? *... (All those panels were professionally installed.)
There are good and bad electricians, just like any profession. Cover yourself. Always get permits and inspections.
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finally, regarding the discoloration on the lines into that far left disconnect, is it possible the installer just didn't use anti-ox?
Anti-ox is primarily an aluminum wire issue. Those wires look like copper. For normal, noncorrosive location, residential wiring, anti-ox is never used on copper.

Last edited by Glennsparky; 07-09-2013 at 03:36 AM.
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Old 07-09-2013, 04:12 AM   #30
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Help with tapped sub panel.


Quote:
Originally Posted by wirenut1110 View Post
The conductors after this breaker is a branch circuit, ...
It's a branch circuit if there are no other OCPDs (fuses or breakers) on that circuit. If it goes to a breaker panel, it's a feeder. Article 100, definitions.
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...and the conductors need to be sized according to the OCPD with exceptions like motors, hvac equipment, etc.
Or taps.
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Originally Posted by wirenut1110 View Post
To me, this would be no different than having a junction box with, let's say, #10 conductors in it and splicing a #14 wire to it and call it a "tap".
You could do that. If, for instance, the #14 went directly to backfeed a 15 amp breaker. And the breaker was fastened with a hold down kit.

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