Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > Electrical

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 01-03-2013, 08:56 PM   #16
DIY Enthusiast
 
sublime2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,109
Rewards Points: 500
Default

HELP, Please.. Do I really need this work done????


I just had to post.
I want to applaud all of the pro sparkys for stepping up so quickly and saving this guy potentially thousands of dollars in needless repairs. To me, it's threads like this that make me happy I found this place!
Well done guys! You ALL Rock!!

sublime2 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to sublime2 For This Useful Post:
electures (01-04-2013)
Old 01-04-2013, 01:41 AM   #17
JOATMON
 
ddawg16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: S. California
Posts: 7,585
Rewards Points: 2,498
Default

HELP, Please.. Do I really need this work done????


Quote:
Originally Posted by sublime2 View Post
I just had to post.
I want to applaud all of the pro sparkys for stepping up so quickly and saving this guy potentially thousands of dollars in needless repairs. To me, it's threads like this that make me happy I found this place!
Well done guys! You ALL Rock!!
A big ditto.....

I've been watching this one all day waiting for the responses....outstanding....

Now...quick question....

The picture that shows the meter to the side....then two breakers (both 100A?) back to back....I'm assuming this is the feed to the 2 sub-panels? I've never seen anything like that before.
__________________
Even if you are on the right track, you will still get run over if you just sit there.

My 2-Story Addition Build in Progress Link ... My Garage Build Link and My Jeep Build Link
ddawg16 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2013, 02:03 AM   #18
" Euro " electrician
 
frenchelectrican's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: WI & France { in France for now }
Posts: 5,369
Rewards Points: 2,000
Default

HELP, Please.. Do I really need this work done????


Quote:
Originally Posted by ddawg16 View Post
A big ditto.....

I've been watching this one all day waiting for the responses....outstanding....

Now...quick question....

The picture that shows the meter to the side....then two breakers (both 100A?) back to back....I'm assuming this is the feed to the 2 sub-panels? I've never seen anything like that before.

I have see it couple time before but not super common in that format useally found in meter pedsteal for mobile home parks but they can show up somewhere else as well.

Some case they used all in one combo panels like that or combo-main units.

Merci,
Marc
__________________
The answer will be based on NEC ( National Electrical code ) or CEC ( Cananda Electrical code ) or ECF ( Electrique Code France )
frenchelectrican is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2013, 06:46 AM   #19
Electrical Contractor
 
rrolleston's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Granville, NY
Posts: 1,941
Rewards Points: 1,000
Send a message via AIM to rrolleston Send a message via Yahoo to rrolleston
Default

HELP, Please.. Do I really need this work done????


I would never expect the customer to rewire their home and bring everything up to code just by looking at an email. I think the only thing that I would add if it were mine or a customer make sure there is proper grounding and check all the aluminum connections.

I would never say its all dangerous. According to him you should rip everything out and start over. Where do these nuts come from. I know the economy is tough for business but no reason to suggest what he did. I also say you should let him read this.
__________________
With Electricity there is the right way to do it and the dead way. Just because it works does not make it safe.
rrolleston is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2013, 06:55 AM   #20
Master Electrician
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Toronto Ontario
Posts: 1,165
Rewards Points: 500
Default

HELP, Please.. Do I really need this work done????


My parents have a restaurant where the meter feeds one 100a panel and one 100a disconnect which feeds a 100a load center for an apartment. The 100a panel is old and feeds into a new 100a loadcenter which feeds into a 30a gen panel. It looks like a dogs breakfast but I know it was all inspected and passed. I really need to find the time to tidy it up a bit though. Your pics look like New install compared to that mess. There's a lot of shady characters out there, as previously stated always get a second and third opinion.
__________________
Sarcasm is my friend
I'm here to learn too, i do mostly commercial/industrial/new construction and this place is a great way to pick up tips on residential from some good electrical minds. Excuse the spelling, my phone has a mind of it's own.
andrew79 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2013, 07:59 AM   #21
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: North Carolina, USA
Posts: 3,125
Rewards Points: 2,450
Default

HELP, Please.. Do I really need this work done????


Quote:
Originally Posted by jeminnick View Post
4. Aluminum conductors are dangerous and unreliable. You should replace them ASAP. I am absolutely serious about this; they are a hazard to your life and the lives of your family.

a qualified electrician should be consulted and contracted with. Preferably one with extensive experience in retrofitting aluminum to
copper circuits (Al - Cu); specific procedures and materials are mandated, and most electricians have not any experience in such circumstances.
I can't speak to most of the stuff he wrote, but with regard to this, it sounds like silly grand-standing and bizarre scare tactics. It's true you need "specific procedures and materials", but it's not exactly rocket science. And aluminum wire by itself is no "threat to your life and the lives of your family", sheesh. Any qualified electrician should be able to handle it - it's not that special. If you can read the instructions on the parts you pick up from Lowes you should be able to figure it out. (For example there are wire nuts and outlets made for copper/aluminum connections.) Granted, you see on the TV shows where hacks hook up aluminum wrong, but the minimum attention to detail can correct that.

The guy sounds like he can handle the work, but I wouldn't hire him just on principle - he's a real drama queen, trying to use fear to drum up work rather than simple explanation.

And by the way...


"The additional circuits required for you to bring your home into compliance with the NEC, IBC and any/all state/local building codes..."

You don't necessarily need to bring your house up to code. They grandfather in a lot of things - as long as it was to code when built, it's OK now. It's only when replacing things for some other reason that you need to adhere to current codes. Again, "NEC, IBC, and any/all state/local building codes..." sheesh, drama queen name dropper.



Last edited by jeffnc; 01-04-2013 at 08:03 AM.
jeffnc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2013, 08:07 AM   #22
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: North Carolina, USA
Posts: 3,125
Rewards Points: 2,450
Default

HELP, Please.. Do I really need this work done????


Quote:
Originally Posted by Techy View Post
4. aluminum feeders are just as good as copper, if properly installed.
Well, aluminum has higher resistance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminum_wire
jeffnc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2013, 08:22 AM   #23
Licensed Electrician
 
k_buz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: SE Wisconsin
Posts: 4,343
Rewards Points: 2,006
Default

HELP, Please.. Do I really need this work done????


Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffnc View Post
Well, aluminum has higher resistance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminum_wire
So? That is taken into account when sizing the wire.
__________________
__________________________________________________ ______________
Answers based on the National Electric Code. Always check local amendments.


k_buz is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to k_buz For This Useful Post:
electures (01-04-2013), frenchelectrican (01-04-2013)
Old 01-04-2013, 09:31 AM   #24
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: North Carolina, USA
Posts: 3,125
Rewards Points: 2,450
Default

HELP, Please.. Do I really need this work done????


Quote:
Originally Posted by k_buz View Post
So? That is taken into account when sizing the wire.
Please pay attention to the context.

The comment was "aluminum feeders are just as good as copper."

This isn't true. They have different attributes, some positive, some negative.

Aluminum has a higher resistance than copper, making it less good in that respect. Yes, obviously a larger wire is going to be used to carry the same current. This is a drawback to using aluminum. Having to use larger wire size does not make aluminum as good as copper.

Saying aluminum is as good as copper makes about as much sense as saying nickels are as good as dimes. If I said they're not because nickels aren't worth as much, you'd say "So? That's taken into account when you decide how many nickels you're going to pay with."

Aluminum has other attributes, good and bad. It is lighter than copper - good. It has a higher coefficient of expansion - bad. (In fact, this is probably the worst problem of all, when related to copper.) Galvanic corrosion is neither a positive or negative of either metal, since it only occurs between dissimilar metals. It's the fact that they're different that's the problem, which can't be blamed on either metal.

Last edited by jeffnc; 01-04-2013 at 09:47 AM.
jeffnc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2013, 09:43 AM   #25
Master Electrician
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Toronto Ontario
Posts: 1,165
Rewards Points: 500
Default

HELP, Please.. Do I really need this work done????


Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffnc View Post

Please pay attention to the context.

The comment was "aluminum feeders are just as good as copper."

This isn't true. They have different attributes, some positive, some negative.

Aluminum has a higher resistance than copper, making it less good in that respect. Yes, obviously a larger wire is going to be used to carry the same current. This is a drawback to using aluminum. Having to use larger wire size does not make aluminum as good as copper.

Saying aluminum is as good as copper makes about as much sense as saying nickels are as good as dimes. If I said they're not because nickels aren't worth as much, you'd say "So? That's taken into account when you decide how many nickels you're going to pay with."
Aluminums also much cheaper. In that regard its better than copper. The context was its unsafe. Not so if done right its just as good as copper. When read in context his post makes perfect sense as do 99% of his posts.
__________________
Sarcasm is my friend
I'm here to learn too, i do mostly commercial/industrial/new construction and this place is a great way to pick up tips on residential from some good electrical minds. Excuse the spelling, my phone has a mind of it's own.
andrew79 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2013, 10:26 AM   #26
Licensed Electrical Cont.
 
Speedy Petey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NY State
Posts: 6,878
Rewards Points: 2,110
Default

HELP, Please.. Do I really need this work done????


Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffnc View Post
Please pay attention to the context.

The comment was "aluminum feeders are just as good as copper."

This isn't true. They have different attributes, some positive, some negative.

Aluminum has a higher resistance than copper, making it less good in that respect.
Now you are playing semantics, and you are twisting the word "good" to suit your stance.

IN GENERAL, Al is just as "good" as CU.
__________________
Sometimes I feel like if I answer any more questions it is like someone trying to climb over a fence to jump off a bridge and me giving them a boost.
Answers based on the 2008 & 2011 NEC.
Speedy Petey is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Speedy Petey For This Useful Post:
frenchelectrican (01-04-2013)
Old 01-04-2013, 10:26 AM   #27
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: North Carolina, USA
Posts: 3,125
Rewards Points: 2,450
Default

HELP, Please.. Do I really need this work done????


Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew79 View Post
Aluminums also much cheaper. In that regard its better than copper.
Just what I said - some negative some positive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew79 View Post
The context was its unsafe. Not so if done right its just as good as copper.
Aluminum is not as good as copper in the context of safety. Which is a main reason copper is used instead of aluminum. (Or, if you care to give your explanation why copper is used today instead of aluminum even though it's more expensive, go ahead.)

The primary reason copper is better than aluminum - with regard to safety - is that it has a lower coefficient of expansion. It's easier to install safely than aluminum. Aluminum requires special attention to things like connector torque, and even to the types of connectors themselves. Copper does not require the same level of attention and materials to get to the same level of safety.

Or to put it another way - using your words - if aluminum is "done right" it can be as safe as copper, but it is more difficult to get it "done right". With copper, it is easier to get it "done right". That's the reason copper is better.

Last edited by jeffnc; 01-04-2013 at 10:34 AM.
jeffnc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2013, 10:28 AM   #28
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: North Carolina, USA
Posts: 3,125
Rewards Points: 2,450
Default

HELP, Please.. Do I really need this work done????


Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
IN GENERAL, Al is just as "good" as CU.
Why is copper used in residential wiring these days, when aluminum is cheaper and lighter? Aluminum costs about a buck a pound, copper costs about 4 times as much. Copper weighs 3 times as much as aluminum. So, why would houses be wired nowadays with copper?

Last edited by jeffnc; 01-04-2013 at 10:39 AM.
jeffnc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2013, 10:37 AM   #29
Member
 
Missouri Bound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Almost Arkansas
Posts: 2,764
Rewards Points: 2,000
Default

HELP, Please.. Do I really need this work done????


jem...the only thing I would add is to perhaps not say anything to the other electricians you call to look over the job, let them tell you what needs to be done. And on another note, I'm proud to be part of this forum when I see so much help and good advice given to a homeowner. This is why I joined
__________________
Do you want it your way or the right way?
Missouri Bound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2013, 10:54 AM   #30
JOATMON
 
ddawg16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: S. California
Posts: 7,585
Rewards Points: 2,498
Default

HELP, Please.. Do I really need this work done????


Here is a better link to show the differnce in wire resistances...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electri...d_conductivity

Silver 0.0000000159 ohm/m
Copper 0.0000000168 ohm/m
Gold 0.0000000244 ohm/m
Alum 0.0000000282 ohm/m

What I find wonderful about the above numbers......copper has a lower resitance than Gold.....but I bet Monster Cable doesn't want people to know that.....

Disclaimer....the reason for gold in contacts is because it does not oxidize like silver and copper....but a better contact material is Copper Beryllium...

Quote:
High conductivity beryllium copper alloys contain up to 0.7% beryllium, together with some nickel and cobalt. Their thermal conductivity is better than of aluminium, only a bit less than pure copper. They are usually used as electric contacts in connectors.

__________________
Even if you are on the right track, you will still get run over if you just sit there.

My 2-Story Addition Build in Progress Link ... My Garage Build Link and My Jeep Build Link
ddawg16 is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Contractor didn't start work in CT - What recourse do I have? ControlTech Off Topic 3 09-28-2010 02:45 AM
grounding the workpiece you're welding jarnold Electrical 41 09-08-2010 08:33 AM
HVAC contractor ripoff! sekntonone HVAC 8 04-05-2008 08:15 AM
Need help with permit/city got a Stop Work Order. amdspitfire General DIY Discussions 39 02-07-2008 03:45 PM
Am I being overcharged for general construction work? baloney12 Building & Construction 2 07-11-2007 07:09 PM




Top of Page | View New Posts

Copyright © 2003-2014 Escalate Media. All Rights Reserved.