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Old 11-25-2012, 10:34 PM   #61
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Help with new 220V sub panel circuit


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IMO that is kinda in grey area but Just don't qoute me wrong I think it can be legit if you have a disconnect switch next to the outdoor compessour location it may be ok but I can not garraintee it.

That one I have to take a closer look unless other guys can chime in more details on this one but I will speak from my French regulations., It is legit only with a disconnect switch. Do your compressour do have a thermal protection on the motour ? if not then you have to use the fused or breaker disconnect switch on that.

Merci,
Marc
The compressor has thermal protection, and, I have no problem with installing an additional breaker or killswitch at or near the compessor. The compressor also has a shut off switch as well so that would be one breaker at the sub, one breaker at the compressor, thermal protection on the compressor AND a shut off on the pressure switch.
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Old 11-26-2012, 09:21 PM   #62
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Code states that you can only run one circuit to an out building.
Just because the electricians and inspecttors in your area do not follow code is not our problem.
You have been told by 3 electricians that you can not run another circuit to your shed, but you do not want to listen.

When people say that they do not care if it is to code, I do not help!
Now I have to bust you down. Because you are in fact, wrong. As per the NEC code, 225.30D Different Characteristics. Additional feeder or branch circuits shall be permitted for different voltage...I think 220 vs 110 qualifies as different voltage. I guess 3 electricians, and no offense to ANY of you, but I guess 3 electricians can make a mistake or rather, be mistaken. Apparently it takes a NON-ELECTRICIAN to look further into this matter and figure it out. Now you know why I didn't want to listen, but I'll admit, I did think you were right for a while there until I found this.
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Old 11-26-2012, 09:25 PM   #63
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Help with new 220V sub panel circuit


225.30 states (paraphrased) a branch circuit on the load side shall be supplied by only one feeder... unless permitted by 225.30 A thru E.

225.30D Different Characteristics. Additional feeder or branch circuits shall be permitted for different voltage...

225.30E ... shall be permitted ... where documented safe switching procedures are established and maintained for disconnection.
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Old 11-26-2012, 09:28 PM   #64
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Help with new 220V sub panel circuit


I disagree. I do not believe that that exception applies to different voltages derived from the same service, although it does not read that way.
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Old 11-26-2012, 09:56 PM   #65
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I disagree. I do not believe that that exception applies to different voltages derived from the same service, although it does not read that way.
What other service could there be? Not that there are no residences that have two of them, but pretty much every residence I've ever worked on, lived in or had cause to look at has only one meter and one main panel. How could you have power derived from a separate service unless you had four lines coming in from the utility to two different main panels. The exception makes no mention of the feeder for the different voltage having to be supplied by a separate service. BTW, I've ditched the sub panel and installed six slim breakers in the main to open up two slots for use with the 30 amp 2 pole breaker meant for the compressor so all those issues with that aspect of the installation are rectified. I just need to be certain about this other area now before going any further, so I can be compliant as you all have indicated I ought to be.
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Old 11-26-2012, 09:58 PM   #66
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I agree with k buz. The home is wired for 110/220. 110 is the product of center tapping the transformer (neutral wire.) They would not qualify for separate voltages in NEC passages quoted.
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Old 11-26-2012, 09:58 PM   #67
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Keep in mind that these codes apply to other applications other than simply dwellings. Many commercial buildings have multiple services run to them supplying different voltages/phases.
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Old 11-26-2012, 11:52 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by darkbreeze View Post
Now I have to bust you down. Because you are in fact, wrong. As per the NEC code, 225.30D Different Characteristics. Additional feeder or branch circuits shall be permitted for different voltage...I think 220 vs 110 qualifies as different voltage. I guess 3 electricians, and no offense to ANY of you, but I guess 3 electricians can make a mistake or rather, be mistaken. Apparently it takes a NON-ELECTRICIAN to look further into this matter and figure it out. Now you know why I didn't want to listen, but I'll admit, I did think you were right for a while there until I found this.
No such luck. The "different characteristics" exception is applied here (and elsewhere in the code) to different types of services, not just different connections to the same service. The garage has a 120V single phase "service". If you now feed it with a 240V "service", the old connection is just a subset of the new one - they have no different characteristics. Even if you had a 3-phase 120/240V service to the garage, you couldn't justify the separate 120V line since that's still just a reconnection of the same service. Now if you had a 2-phase service, or a 20Hz service, or even just a 480V service, then you could keep your old 120V line. The bottom line is that this exception is hardly ever applicable in residential work. It really only comes into play frequently in industrial settings.
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Old 11-26-2012, 11:53 PM   #69
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If the compressor was outside the garage, and the additional feed ran directly to the compressor and never entered the structure, would this still be in violation of the 225.30 NEC code, or is this a grey area too? Just wondering as I would like to be compliant, but I really can't afford to just take a loss on the 10/2 wiring, the existing wiring and also purchase another 75 ft of 6/4, just to use this compressor. I know a lot of compressors are left outside and then shielded from the weather so I thought maybe this would allow me to use what I have but still be compliant. Thanks.
I like that solution. Probably need to mount a disconnect at the compressor, but that's easy enough. Big compressors are better outside the shop anyway.
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Old 11-27-2012, 01:18 AM   #70
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Help with new 220V sub panel circuit


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I think 220 vs 110 qualifies as different voltage


The key here is the term "different characteristics" NEC 225.30 a-e is a mere reflection of NEC 230.2 a-e. For a service to have different characteristics it must be of different confriguration ... a building may be supplied with a single phase 120/240 transformer as one service but the next service if an exception is met and needed and approved by the AHJ would need to have "different characteristics" and therefore be for example a 208Y120 3 phase service. The "different characteristic" being single phase vs. 3 phase. Same goes for different voltages and remember they must have different characteristics ... single phase 120 is not different in characteristic from single phase 240 as both are derived from the same transfomer. Their potential difference is different but that is as far as it goes their characteristics are identical in that both are single phase voltages coming from the same transformer. In order to have a different voltage we have to change supplies say from a single phase delta 120/240 volt transformer to a 3 phase 277/480 delta or possibly a 208Y/120 volt trnasformer. Taking note that 120 volt from the Y configuration is a different voltage characteristic than 120 volts from the delta configuration. This different voltage exception would rarily if ever be applied to a residential property unless a business/commercial operation is being used out of the detached building justifying different voltage configurations.


Point being that 120 single phase being different in potential from 240 volt single phase doesn't make it a different voltage characteristically. That is a far stretch of the intent of 225.30 (d).

225.30 (e) is commercial or multifamily and not single family residences. The Documented Switching Procedure is only met if all individuals are qualified and trained to operate the switching devices for disconnecting power to the detached building.

About the only exception that would apply to a single family dwelling is the different uses part of 225.30(d). In this case for a residence you would be allowed to run a 3 way switching circuit to control outside lighting on the detached building in addition to a feeder or another branch circuit serving the interior of the detached building.

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Old 11-27-2012, 08:59 AM   #71
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. BTW, I've ditched the sub panel and installed six slim breakers in the main to open up two slots for use with the 30 amp 2 pole breaker meant for the compressor so all those issues with that aspect of the installation are rectified. I just need to be certain about this other area now before going any further, so I can be compliant as you all have indicated I ought to be.
Good, way better than feeding it from those lugs on the buss bar. At least you are now protecting the wires and the circuit properly.
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Old 11-28-2012, 12:54 AM   #72
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Well, I guess I stand corrected on the exception. I thought I had you for sure on that. Better to know for certain though I guess. I suppose I'm just going to have to put the compressor outside the building. I must say, that is a fundamentally stupid rule. It makes no sense, at least to me, that you can have, let's say, ten or fifteen different circuits from the panel branching out throughout the house, but only one to anything that is not the house. I see no justification for the rule in regards to safety as long as everything is properly configured regarding amperages, connections, support, materials and water tight joinery, it should be allowed, especially if the intended use would exceed the amperage specified for a single circuit. You could easily use two circuits to supply the needed voltage and amperage while not exceeding the rated spec for each individual branch or the overall for the main panel. Makes about as much sense as the laws requiring all children under the age of 8 to be in a car seat. I know 7 year olds that are bigger than some ten year olds and vice versa. Well, it is what it is I guess. Thanks to everybody for your help and input. I'm resigned I suppose.
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Old 11-28-2012, 12:57 AM   #73
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Help with new 220V sub panel circuit


One thing you are missing is that you would need a main disconnect for those 15 circuits. Now, I know you weren't intending to run 15 circuits, but the main would still be needed, even in your situation.
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Old 11-28-2012, 08:23 AM   #74
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One thing you are missing is that you would need a main disconnect for those 15 circuits. Now, I know you weren't intending to run 15 circuits, but the main would still be needed, even in your situation.
I was referring to the main and circuits that are already there, normally. But yeah.
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Old 11-28-2012, 09:47 AM   #75
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Think about it this way, in the event of fire or other emergency, you flip one main switch and all power to that building is instantly cut.
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