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-   -   help me find the box I need (http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/help-me-find-box-i-need-145758/)

rasz 06-02-2012 05:50 PM

help me find the box I need
 
In my bathroom I have a two gang box that formerly had an outlet, and a simple switch which operated my bathroom fan and my bathroom lights.

As there is another outlet in the bath and as I am replacing my fan and put in LED lights. I decided to eliminate the outlet, and get a fan timer and a LED dimmer.

The wall is a 2x4 wall that can take a 2 3/16 deep box to outside surface of drywall. The current box is too small for these newer larger switches and the wires and the two different carlon old work boxes I purchased are too deep.

Into this box are the following:
2 conductor plus ground line from breaker box
3 conductor (Bl, Wh, Red) plus ground that power the lights and fan
2 conductor that powers the other outlet
2 conductor that I have no idea where it goes despite testing everything in the house for a day*

OK so the guy at the hardware store (yeah I know) suggested a 1 3/4" deep metal 3 gang with one "gang" covered with a metal plate and tucked behind the wall and the other two gangs raised with mudring to 2 3/16. He idnicated this is no different than carton shallow "extra space" boxes that have space compartment behind a finished wall to provide code volume capacity for wires.

thoughts? alternative solutions?

*while I could simply cut this at entry to the box I am not inclined to do so unless I have to make code for box capacity. They were powered and right now I capped them with a wire nut.

gregzoll 06-02-2012 07:06 PM

Get a "Smart" box.

Jim Port 06-02-2012 07:14 PM

You are going to need a box with capacity for 14 conductors, plus any internal clamps.

14*2 = 28 cubic inch minimum or 14*2.25 = 31.5 cubic inches minimum.

k_buz 06-02-2012 07:24 PM

Is this a narrow wall? By this I mean are the 2x4's turned?

If so, and the devices are too deep for the boxes, you are going to have a hard time finding any box that will work with the plate sitting flush on the wall.

You could install a Wiremold extension box, that would give you the depth and the wirefill you need, but it will stick off the wall about 1".

rasz 06-02-2012 07:41 PM

kBuz,
Yes I should have made that more clear. they are turned. so with wallboard on the bathroom side usable depth is 2/14 to 2 3/16.

All connections were already present. I added no connections, it is the replacement of the normal switch with a LED switch, and the replacement of a GFI outlet with a fan timer.

Jim
I see some three gang raco 1 5/8 that look like they have the needed capacity with a mud ring over two gangs. would it be a problem to tuck one gang under the wall with a flat cover like the carlton "extra space"? All the connections woudl be accessible by removing the switch, just like the carlton scheme.

the other option is a three gang with mud ring and all three gangs through the wall and a three gang wall plate with a "dummy filler." Does that finished look seem like a hack job or is it best way with this width wall?

Greg, Thanks. My bad, I wasnt clear on the wall width. I think the smart box is wrong for me

k_buz 06-02-2012 07:48 PM

Quote:

I see some three gang raco 1 5/8 that look like they have the needed capacity with a mid ring over two gangs. would it be a problem to tuck one gang under the wall with a flat cover like the carlton "extra space"? All the connections woudl be accesble by removing the switch, just like the carlton scheme.
Yes, that would be a code violation. I know it seems like it is the same thing, but the box opening cannot be legally be covered with drywall.

But what you could do, is install a 3/G box and the two devices, then install a 3/G switch plate and what is called a switch blank.

rasz 06-02-2012 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by k_buz (Post 934792)
Yes, that would be a code violation. I know it seems like it is the same thing, but the box opening cannot be legally be covered with drywall.

But what you could do, is install a 3/G box and the two devices, then install a 3/G switch plate and what is called a switch blank.

Thanks kbuz. I am not sure how carlton gets away with it having half behind the drywall and only accessible by removing the switch or outlet.

I am looking at raco part #951 two gang 1 5/8 deep steel and it says 47 cubic inches. Is that right? is that enough with the two huge switches, or should I go with a three gang x 1 5/8?
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q..._IbSPk2RjMdIJw

http://www.amazon.com/RACO-951-Elect.../dp/B0078RRU74

Techy 06-02-2012 08:36 PM

you would also need Raco #821 to use that box

http://www.amazon.com/RACO-821-Plaster-Ring-Cover/dp/B007YV5AWG/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1338687155&sr=1-1



Total box depth including ring is 2 3/8

rasz 06-02-2012 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Techy (Post 934828)
you would also need Raco #821 to use that box

http://www.amazon.com/RACO-821-Plaster-Ring-Cover/dp/B007YV5AWG/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1338687155&sr=1-1

Total box depth including ring is 2 3/8

techy, thanks. Is tehre a solution pros use for 3/16 to 1/4"raised from surface? Depth from back of rear sheetrock to front of bathroom sheetrock is 2 3/16, box/cover will be 2 3/8

Techy 06-02-2012 09:06 PM

i would try a piece of 1/4" plastic or wood, with a hole cut in it to fit around the mudring.

rasz 06-04-2012 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by k_buz (Post 934792)
Yes, that would be a code violation. I know it seems like it is the same thing, but the box opening cannot be legally be covered with drywall.

But what you could do, is install a 3/G box and the two devices, then install a 3/G switch plate and what is called a switch blank.

Is there a code citation stating no part of the box can be covered?

I looked at about a dozen videos of tiling and this always involves covering over all around the box. As far as I can tell the mudring is nearly always partially covered making removal of the box impossible but allowing access to what is inside

So what I am getting at, is using a 3 gang box with a two gang opening mudring and thereby having the cubic inches but only a two gang opening.

For example since the height of this is plaster height, and it is called a plaster ring, it seems it is made for under plaster, placing 40% or so of the box behind the plaster. right?

http://www.amazon.com/RACO-821-Plast...8687155&sr=1-1

or for that matter 2 gang mudring over a 4 11/32 square which wil give me both shallowness and capacity I need.

Techy 06-05-2012 06:51 AM

You cant cover a 3 gang mudring opening and only use 2 gangs, but a 3 gang width box with a 2 gang mudring is acceptable.

rasz 06-05-2012 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Techy (Post 936688)
You cant cover a 3 gang mudring opening and only use 2 gangs, but a 3 gang width box with a 2 gang mudring is acceptable.

yeah that is what I thought. as long as the openings are open other parts can be behind the wall.

I will just go with a three gang with a two gang opening and the covered "half a gang" on each side buried behind the wall. Plenty of capacity, meets code, and conncetions are accessable once you remove the switch just like Carlons boxes that have half their fronts behind the wall.


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