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Old 10-22-2007, 06:56 AM   #16
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Help on installing a 220v outlet


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Originally Posted by BobRankin View Post
The table saw is 230v 7.5 amps or possibly 230v 12 amps depending on which I get. I only got a single outlet plug so only one would run at the same time.
I ended up running 14 gauge wire to a bi pole 15 amp breaker, no neutral with ground since I'll never use it for anything else. It's 15 feet of cable to the panel.
I was asking at the store if I wanted to run both appliances at once and getting a dual outlet but I didn't know you would add the amp of appliances together.
1) For the single outlet to run the 9amp dust collector OR the 7.5 or 12 amp table saw can you tell me if what I did was ok?

2) If I wanted to go back and put in a dual outlet to run both machines at the same time could you tell me (new question for the thread) what I'd need to do to safely handle the 2x 230 machines together? 10 gauge wire + 30 amp breaker maybe? Or two different cable runs to different breakers?

bob, how can you be sure that they will never be run at the same time? 21 amps surely would be trouble for a 15A cct.

if you wanted the capability to run both, i would suggest putting them on seperate ccts. where you have these, is it a workshop? you may want to consider runniug a sub panel out there. it would make wiring up new devices a bit easier in the future.

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Old 10-22-2007, 07:48 AM   #17
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Help on installing a 220v outlet


I'm an amateur electrician, but a professional furnituremaker, so my advice on the machinery may be more useful than the wiring. But I'll offer both anyways.

In my mind, a dust collector should be wired so that it can be run in combination with any other machine in the shop. The tablesaw is the biggest producer of airborne dust in the workshop, so you definitely want to be able to run the dust collector at the same time as the TS. So, either put it on it's own circuit, or put it on a circuit that can have everything on, and not trip the breaker. The original poster doesn't know much about wiring, and is looking for the simplest way to do this, but he appears to only have 2 spaces free in his panel. So he can't run two 15A 220V cirucuits. Why not just install a 20A 2-pole breaker, and run 12-2 NM-B to two single 20A receptacles in the garage? All the necessary components are available at home depot, and it'll be a much easier solution for someone new to wiring.

The 7.5A tablesaw is probably a 1.5 hp saw, right? Unless you want to get into more wiring, just stick with that one (it's got plenty of power), and in combination with the 9A dust collector you won't overload the 20A circuit.

If you plan to add more machinery or power loads in your workshop (or if you're set on getting the 3hp tablesaw), then you'll need to have a sub panel installed. I'd recommend you do that if you plan to expand the shop at all in the future, but you'll probably need to hire an electrician for that, unless you have a handy friend who can show you what you need to do.
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Old 10-22-2007, 08:31 AM   #18
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Help on installing a 220v outlet


Thanks for the info so far guys.

They wont be run at the same time because I already bought a single 220v outlet, there's no plug for a 2nd device.

I run a 110v tablesaw now so I can run the 220v dust collector on it's own outlet/breaker and the tablesaw and other equipmenton on their own existing 110v plugs.

I probably will only be living in that house (the 1 car garage is my play area now) for another year so I likely wont be buying a new 220v table saw until the next house. If plans change and I do splurge for another 220v device I'd have to rewire to have a dual 220v outlet plug and in that case swap out the 15 amp breaker I already installed on 15 ft 14 gauge wire (hope it works).

What would I need to run two devices off the same dual outlet scenerios:
9amp + 7.5 amp= 16.5 amp. 12 gauge + 20 bipole breaker should do?
9amp + 12 amp= 21 amp. 10 gauge + 30 bipole breaker should do?
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Old 10-22-2007, 12:00 PM   #19
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Help on installing a 220v outlet


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Originally Posted by BobRankin View Post
Thanks for the info so far guys.

They wont be run at the same time because I already bought a single 220v outlet, there's no plug for a 2nd device.

I run a 110v tablesaw now so I can run the 220v dust collector on it's own outlet/breaker and the tablesaw and other equipmenton on their own existing 110v plugs.

I probably will only be living in that house (the 1 car garage is my play area now) for another year so I likely wont be buying a new 220v table saw until the next house. If plans change and I do splurge for another 220v device I'd have to rewire to have a dual 220v outlet plug and in that case swap out the 15 amp breaker I already installed on 15 ft 14 gauge wire (hope it works).

What would I need to run two devices off the same dual outlet scenerios:
9amp + 7.5 amp= 16.5 amp. 12 gauge + 20 bipole breaker should do?
9amp + 12 amp= 21 amp. 10 gauge + 30 bipole breaker should do?
That's correct, as far as I understand. Adding a second box with another 220V receptacle is about a 10 minute job, so that shouldn't slow you down. But in that case you'd have to upgrade to 12-2 wire and a 20A 2-pole breaker.
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Old 10-23-2007, 10:02 AM   #20
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Help on installing a 220v outlet


Bob

If your just going to use the tools as a hobby & are not really looking at a branch circuit where you are wanting to serving motors then what you have done to this point is fine. Your double pole 15 amp breaker is a 15 amp per leg breaker it is not a 30 amp breaker. It should look like the one in the upper left of your panel. BTW that siemens breaker appears to be a "classified" breaker not necessarily intended to be used as a listed breaker for that panel.

Once you start designing branch circuits to serve multiple motors and not as general purpose branch circuits it is prudent to follow the motor branch circuit rules of Article 430. This is a whole different way of looking at things than a branch circuit designed to plug a power tool into on an individual basis... much like you would a vacuum sweeper in a branch circuit.

My advice for your future needs is to supply your table saw its own branch circuit and your dust collector its own branch circuit since these are cord and plug tools and not hardwired tools. The manufacturer most likely specifies that in the tools manual of installation. A sub-panel is a great way to keep all these circuits to a woodshop organized. This is what I'd do in your situation now but you are leaving in year or so I think what you have done is fine.

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Old 10-23-2007, 10:24 AM   #21
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Help on installing a 220v outlet


Slightly off topic, Can a person use thicker gauge wire for any type of amperage or circuit?
Could I have used 10 gauge wire with my current 15 amp breaker if I happen to have it kicking around in case I decide to upgrade to a larger amperage later?
Do you need some sort of minumum current lever to support the thick wire?
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Old 10-23-2007, 12:02 PM   #22
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Help on installing a 220v outlet


Yes, can run a heavier gauge wire and put it on a smaller breaker (10 gauge on 15 amp). The thicker wire is much harder to work with. You must never mix wire sizes on any circuit. For instance if you powered your saw with 10 gauge, then down the road wanted to tap into this for another power source, you will have to continue with the 10 gauge.
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Old 10-23-2007, 02:21 PM   #23
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Help on installing a 220v outlet


There is never a good reason to run heavier wire than required for cord and plug tools. The power cord and cap/plug determines the branch circuit size it can utilize. In most cases for the typical DIYer power tool that is a 15 or 20 amp branch circuit whether 240 volts or 120 volts. If these branch circuit ratings are the same voltage then 15 amp plugs can be used on the 20 amp branch circuit. If you run 30 amp rated 10 gauge branch circuits (using a 30 amp breaker) your receptacle rating must be equal to the branch circuit rating...so your plugs will not allow you to utilize these circuits. The point here is that the NEC will not allow 30 amp breakers with 15 or 20 amp receptacles. The ocpd determines the branch circuit rating. Reasoning is that if you install duplex receptacles and have 30 amps available you could easily exceed the receptacle rating if it is 15 amps or 20 amps on a 30 amp breaker.
If you take Bobs third example of a 12 amp table saw and 9 amp dust collector and for simplicity consider the load at 21 amps, this would require a 30 amp or 25 amp branch circuit but you will need to use 20 amp receptacles or 15 amp receptacles to utilize the power cords and plugs. You are not allowed to do this so the branch circuit is not compatible with the tools. Unless the tool or appliance utilizes 30 amp power cord and plug the 30 amp circuit is unusable for 15 or 20 amp power tool cords. So for example if we run a 30 amp branch circuit to serve Bob's tools and plug them into a 15 amp duplex receptacle that will accomodate his tool power cords we now have 21 amps being drawn thru a 15 amp rated receptacle while the tools are operating similtaneously. The breaker and wire is rated for the load but the 15 receptacle is not nor would a 20 amp receptacle. And in fact a 15 amp duplex receptacle should not have more than 12 amps of cord and plug connected load.... NEC 210.21(B)(2). So looking at a 12 amp table saw you can see it is right on the line if it is plugged into a 15 amp duplex. This is why you generally see that these tools are spec'd by the manufacturer to use 15 or 20 amp branch circuits.


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Old 10-23-2007, 02:26 PM   #24
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Help on installing a 220v outlet


Yea...What Stubbie said...
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Old 10-23-2007, 05:32 PM   #25
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Help on installing a 220v outlet


I noticed that home depot only osld 2 different 220v recepicles, a single 15a and a duplex 15a. I asked the guy if the 15a recepticle would bottleneck the 20 or 30 amp breaker or the (thicker than) 14 gauge wire. He said that was a good question.

I said I wanted to power a 12a saw with a 9a dust collector at the same time = 21a and the recepicles only gave 15a. I asked why they didnt' have 20 or 30a duplex recepicles.

He said in that case I'd have to have two different 15a singe recepticles with 2 different cables going to 2 different 15a breakers, or run the different cables and breakers to a singel duplex recepticle with the seperator tabs cut.

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