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Old 04-24-2008, 08:11 PM   #106
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Help if it's not too late!!


Are ya back yet??? How many fish TALES......I mean fish tails did you come back with? What kind of fish were you fishing for anyway back there? We live just a hop, skip and a jump from a HUGE lake and River. We have lived here 3 years and I have yet to go fishing. My hubby is not into fishing but says he would take me, but no boat yet. I guess I could fish off the shore. I bought a license last year...it went unused.

Well, I have thought long and hard and some discussion with Randy, my other half. Unless I stay awake all night and change my mind, I am going to pull the existing #8s out, add a #8 ground , run it back through the feeder conduit, get a new panel and buy a 50 amp Challenger breaker for the main panel for now. Once I get everything all wired in the way it should be (grounded), in the late summer I will just pull the #8s out, run the alum. with the copper ground #8 and put a 70-90 amp breaker in...so lets get this party started!!!!!!!

Do you need any pictures now of anything??? Any exact measurements??? By the way, if the panel knock outs don't match the conduit that I have already run for lights and outlets in the left of the garage, should I buy some kind of flex conduit to match it up or try to do some off-set bends. So far my 90 bends are perfect but not sure about off-sets. I guess I could practice on some scraps, huh?? After all it's gotta be PURTY!!!!!!!!!

Talk to you all later.
Cyndi






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Old 04-24-2008, 08:27 PM   #107
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Hi Cyndi

I don't have to go far to fish.. about 5 miles. I went fishing for crappie I only caught 8 of the beggers but enough for dinner they are in the oven as we speak. I was only gone about two hours ...it started to rain again..

Ok I guess we have gone full circle so that is fine and it should get you by for the summer.

If I understand you correctly your conduit isn't lining up with the knockouts at the panel. You should always start at the panel and build your conduit runs from there. So if that is the case then you will have to buy some pre made offsets and hope they work out or bend your own.
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Old 04-24-2008, 08:38 PM   #108
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The conduit runs line up with the existing panel perfectly cause I did start at the panel. My question is, if they don't line up with the new panel, what can I do? You just answered my question though.

Although I like the idea that jrclen had about the aluminum wiring, it will be quicker for me to continue with your original plan and that will give me a little more time to budget for the new wiring.

And if I am understanding everything so far, when I am all done with the original plan and all of my other wiring, the only thing that I will have to do to upgrade the service wires to the sub-panel is to pull the 8s and put the aluminum wiring in with a ground and larger breaker in the main. Is that correct??

Maybe by the time I get everything done, in a few weeks, I will be able to get the alum wiring anyway and BINGO! It will be Great!!

But if not, at least I have a safe system to work from and the other will come at the end of summer at the very latest.
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Old 04-24-2008, 09:04 PM   #109
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And if I am understanding everything so far, when I am all done with the original plan and all of my other wiring, the only thing that I will have to do to upgrade the service wires to the sub-panel is to pull the 8s and put the aluminum wiring in with a ground and larger breaker in the main. Is that correct??
Yes, that is correct.

Sorry I didn't realize you were talking about the new panel of course you would since the other one is existing....duh....

Yep you just have to undo some of it back to the first device box and redo the run to the new sub.

Hasn't this been fun.....

Be sure to seperate the ground and neutral in that sub look at the graphic back on post 14.

Last edited by Stubbie; 04-24-2008 at 09:07 PM.
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Old 04-24-2008, 09:24 PM   #110
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I have all your graph, charts etc. in a notebook to refer to when I need. Thank you so much for the effort!!! They definitely are going to come in handy in the next couple days.

I hope you don't feel like I waisted your time with the decision to follow your first plan. I still needed the other infor for the near future anyway.... sorry.

You have to remember, a woman has the right to change her mind again and again. That is just nature!!!!!!!!!! It's written in our genetics

By the way, how were your fish? My cookies were great!!! What does crappie tast like....Walleye or trout or ???? I like Walleye, halibut, shark, swordfish and any other mild tasting fish. Not much for the strong flavored kind. Trout is good too if it is prepared right. I had fresh salmon on the barbecue one time. It was the best. I haven't made it since. I don't even remember how I did it but it was fish-o-licious!!!!
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Old 04-24-2008, 09:39 PM   #111
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You did not waste my time. I'm retired so that is something I have. I was glad to help. If you learned something then it was all worth it.

Crappie are mild tasting white flesh and similar to walleye. They were delicious with a noodles and cream sauce. By gosh I think I'll go catch some more tomorrow...
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Old 04-24-2008, 10:08 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Stubbie View Post
Hi Cyndi

I don't have to go far to fish.. about 5 miles. I went fishing for crappie I only caught 8 of the beggers but enough for dinner they are in the oven as we speak. I was only gone about two hours ...it started to rain again..
Do the crappie out your way get to be any size? We tear crappie up here in alabama when the season hits. That and bream too. We have caught some nice crappie so far. Few pounds a piece make for some good eating. Just hate ripping off them scales . Catfish are a LOT easier lol. Ok back to Electricity 201
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Old 04-24-2008, 10:26 PM   #113
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Just hate ripping off them scales
I filet them no messing with the scales and boneless.

A 2 lb crappie is a big fish here, we catch them but not a lot of them the average in my area is probably 3/4 lb.

You're making me hungry talkin that way.....
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Old 04-24-2008, 10:45 PM   #114
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Down here usually they are on avg about 2-4 lbs IF you get on a good mess of them. We usually stay out most of the night catching 30-50 of them. Pretty fun stuff!! We toss the whole thing over in the pan.
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Old 04-25-2008, 12:55 PM   #115
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Good Morning! I sold one of my paintings this morning and made some bucks!!! That was a nice surprise. So.................guess what?............................Aluminum wire it is!!!!!!!! Randy is going to pick everything up for me at the Home Depot late today on his way home and I will start tomorrow morn.

Hasn't this been a roller coaster ride??? By the way, I have a fishin joke for ya but it's a long one so I will send it later. No time for now, I gotta get some housework done while I have the chance. Thanks! Cyndi

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Old 04-25-2008, 03:12 PM   #116
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Cyndi

I'm starting to get a little dizzy....

Your going to need help pulling the wire.

Remember you have 4 wires. The ground bar will be the bonded to the metal of the panel the neutral bar will not. So green screw or whatever bonds the neutral bar to the metal of the panel you do not want it installed and if it is installed remove it. Your #8 ground in the feeder will connect to the ground bar as will the #6 to the ground rod(s) all your equipment grounds (probably green) in your branch circuits will connect to the ground bar. You can double the grounds if they are the same size.
All your grounded legs or neutrals if you prefer will connect to the neutral bar.

To visuallize the separation of grounds and neutrals this is the idea....Your grounds are for wiring or equipment faults to allow the fault current to flow to the ground bar onto the equipment ground ran with the feeder conductors. Then flows off the feeder equipment ground onto the neutral bar in the 200 amp panel which is bonded to the service neutral that goes to the center tap of the transformer. This is where the fault current flows to.....the source of the premise wiring which is the transformer.
If you were to install the green bonding screw in the neutral bar at the sub panel...that screw goes thru the metal of the panel connecting it or bonding it to the neutral bar.....but....since that metal of the panel is also bonded to the ground bar you create a parallel path for current to flow on.

Current should never be on the equipment ground wires unless there is a fault and then it will only be there until the circuit breaker opens...a blink of the eye. However neutral current is allows flowing on the branch circuit grounded legs or neutrals back to the neutral bar of the sub-panel. If you install the green bonding screw you give that neutral current a way to get to the equipment ground wires. Understand that current will take all paths to get back to the source, man made or otherwise, it will even use the earth if it has to. So current will split 1/2 will go on the green screw and travel to the the metal of the panel to the ground bar onto the feeder ground and to the panel at the pole. The other 1/2 of the current will flow off the neutral bar of the sub panel to the feeder neutral back to the pole panel. So you have current on the feeder neutral and the feeder equipment ground. You do not want neutral current on the equipment ground because this poses a shock hazard on the metal of the panel since your ground bar is bonded to it. By removing or not installing that green screw you have broken the path to the equipment ground bar and have now separated the grounds and neutrals as they should be. If you look.... the neutral bar is always on non-conductive insulators that keep it off the metal of the panel. The only way to connect the neutral bar to the metal is to do it intentionally with that green screw or other means.

Your lesson for the day....

Last edited by Stubbie; 04-27-2008 at 12:37 PM.
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Old 04-25-2008, 03:15 PM   #117
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Gaylord? What is he? Are they good to eat...... Just joking
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Old 04-25-2008, 03:15 PM   #118
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Stubbie!!!! I need you asap. Randy is at Home Depot and they are trying to tell him that it is all the wrong stuff and that it can't be done the way we talked. They say we need a 90 in the main panel and have to buy a 90 for the sub panel and bypass the main breaker in the sub panel. Therefore he says buying a main breaker panel is not right, that we need a lug panel and need to put in a 90 amp breaker. Let me know what I should tell Randy as soon as you can as he has to leave the store for a job in a few minutes. Hope to hear soon. If not, we will just do it next week instead.
Thanks .....Cyndi P.S. I knew this would happen.... That's Home Depot
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Old 04-25-2008, 03:21 PM   #119
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Jeez those guys at home depot are something. Tell him to get the the materials whether they like it or not.
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Old 04-25-2008, 03:25 PM   #120
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Does a HD employee know electrical code better than a forum full of licensed electricians?? He can save the advice and stick to just selling the parts...

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