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Old 04-22-2008, 01:09 PM   #61
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Help if it's not too late!!


Good Morning!!! Morning here anyway! I wish I could send a drawing of the layout. I tried importing a photo yesterday for kicks, obviously it didn't work. I must be missing a step in your photo instructions or something.

The 200 amp panel at the house is approx. 140 feet from the barn panel. From the barn panel one underground run goes out to the left approx. 60 feet to a pasture. The other three underground runs go 70 feet (one to the direct right) and another run goes 160 feet and then continues to another location on another circuit which is approx. 300 from the panel at the end. Each of those circuits have a light fixture with 2-150 watt spots that are sensored and a duplex outlet for the trough heaters. (One trough heater on a duplex, one sensored light fixture per circuit.) with the exception of one which just has 2-150 sensored spots for arena lighting and a duplex receptcle which isn't used. The present trough heaters that were used this winter are 1250 watts each but if need be I can buy more of the 500 watt heaters for 2 of the circuits because they are smaller goat troughs, but I need the larger heater for the larger trough in the horse pasure.

With this information, do I scrap the #8 wire idea and go with the #6 in a few months when the budget allows? Either way is o.k. with me if that's what I need to do.

Lights and receptacles are already on separate circuits. You mentioned in the beginning of our contact that I should split my receptacles to have 3 on one circuit and 3 on another for the left wall of the barn instead of 6 on one circuit because of my use. I am still going to do that as well and put a GFCI in the first one from the panel on each circuit.... right?

I was also reading on another posting some information about 2 circuits using the same nuetral. That is how mine is set up on the left of the barn. I have 3 circuits in one conduit with one ground and two neutral wires. The first set of 3 outlets will have its own hot, neutral and shared ground. The second circuit will have its own hot, shared ground (all 3 circuits on same ground) and shared neutral with the third circuit. Sound right?? My question by reading some of the other posts is about how to hook them up in the panel on the right breakers to balance the load????? This is where a photo of the new panel will come in handy and I guess that would be the best time to show me.

I ran my different circuits with different colored hot wires to keep it simple. One black one red and another red marked with tape at both ends.

Originally I was going to have the 6 outets on the left on one circuit, I was going to continue on with the other two circuits, one for the back wall (shop area) and one for the right of the barn. Now because I will be splitting the 6 outlets on the left, I will use two circuits for that and then go on with the last circuit to the back wall and add a run with two new circuits from the panel in a new conduit run to the right side for the same set up as the left (6 outlets on two circuits. Does it matter if the 6 left outlets that will be split 3/3 use the same neutral wire or can the last 3 outlets on the left side share the neutral with the shop outlets on the rear of the barn?? There will be 6 shop outlets (duplexes) on the rear wall for some woodworking tools. Nothing major.

Cyndi


Last edited by Cyndi; 04-22-2008 at 01:15 PM.
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Old 04-22-2008, 01:48 PM   #62
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Hi Cyndi

The general idea is to get enough voltage to the barn to deliver the needed amperage that is being utilized by what you are operating at the barn. Then you have to be sure to get enough voltage to the farthest heater or trough from the barn sub-panel. So if we get 50 amps at 230 volts to the barn then we use the 230 volts as a starting point to size the wire for the branch circuits going out to the pastures. 220 volts or close is about as low as you want to get at the end of the circuit. Since those circuits are already in place and I assume they have been working fine then I also assume the right wire size was used on those particular branch circuits. The 300 and 160 foot runs need bigger wire than 14 or 12. I'm glad your not using any motors or electric pumps way out like that.

As for shared neutral circuits, these are called multiwires and they indeed help with voltage drop. If you balance the load exactly on the two hots (on different legs) that share the same neutral all return current will cancel and your voltage drop only is calculated on the one way distance to the heater or what ever your using. None the less they are very useful to control voltage drop. You use a double pole common trip breaker it looks like this...notice every other receptacle is connected to a different leg.
Attached Thumbnails
Help if it's not too late!!-gfci-config.jpg  

Last edited by Stubbie; 04-22-2008 at 01:55 PM.
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Old 04-22-2008, 01:58 PM   #63
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All branch wiring is # 12!!!! Yet another glitch??? It appears that all was working fine through this winter. Now what?
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Old 04-22-2008, 02:34 PM   #64
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Using the word Ass hardly makes one a vulgar potty mouth. If you came here to push your anti lib agenda please go over to "My Space" where you spend most of your time with the other adolescents. This is a electrical forum where people come for advice. Which you are not skilled enough to give. Take your labels you tack on people and stick them where the sun doesn't shine.

How long do you think you will still be obsessed with star wars? If you liken yourself to the role JOBA FET played then hopefully Luke Skywalker will kick your "ASS" into that same hole you ended up in during the movie.

Be Gone or perish evil one......
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Old 04-22-2008, 02:42 PM   #65
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Joba-Great comeback!! What time do you get out of preschool today?? You can use this one too. "I know you are but what am I?" How about "You're not the boss of me!! or "I'm telling!" You don't immpress anyone, you little man. You just have a little boy bad attitued and I'm sure that's not all that's little.

"Nothing can stop the man/woman with the right mental attitude from acheiving his/her goal; Nothing on earth can help the man (little man) with the wrong attitude. " Original Quote from Thhomas Jefferson-Tweeked by Cyndi ....................Grow up.

Last edited by Cyndi; 04-22-2008 at 02:49 PM.
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Old 04-22-2008, 02:45 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyndi View Post
All branch wiring is # 12!!!! Yet another glitch??? It appears that all was working fine through this winter. Now what?
Nothing will change until you start adding more load to the circuits as
you expand your needs. Stay the course and don't change a thing except the ground in the feeder and lets see how things work out for you. Right now you need to be code compliant and new main breaker panel fixes the disconnect issue... bigger breaker (50 amp) gives you more load capability that is still reasonable with voltage drop on #8. If you increase the load on those long runs and it is still resistive type loads like heaters and lights then you will just not generate as much heat from the element and dimmer lights due to the voltage drop from the amperage demands. If the 20 amp breaker doesn't trip and it probably won't unless you exceed 20 amps you will just not have the amperage needed to operate the heaters a peak levels or the lights at their brightest.
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Old 04-22-2008, 02:45 PM   #67
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Hey Stubbie- If we ignore him, maybe he will just go away like the little child that he is. He just wants attention, huh? I notice that his input has the same slant on everything he posts. He likes reading his own words or something!!! Not impressive to anyone else but himself.
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Old 04-22-2008, 02:47 PM   #68
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O.K. Stubbie-I'm goin Shoppin!!!!!
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Old 04-22-2008, 03:45 PM   #69
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Lord help us... a woman goin shopping in the electrical department....
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Old 04-22-2008, 05:52 PM   #70
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Never made it to town!!! One of those days. I called my hubby and he is going to pick up th #8 ground wire as well as the ground screws and GFCI receptacles. I'm going to try to make it to town tomorrow or Friday for the panel and the rest of the goods. At least I can work on the feed and the grounding portion of the job until I get the rest.

Thanks, Cyndi

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Old 04-22-2008, 06:05 PM   #71
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I can't say shopping in the electrical department floats my boat, but shopping in the tool department does!!!!

Yeah, I like the flower department too!!!!!! I'm looking forward to stocking my new shop! That is if I don't fill it completely with goats!!! I need to save some room for the fun stuff.
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Old 04-23-2008, 10:11 AM   #72
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Are you able to get your album uploaded on dropshots?.... if so... open your album on dropshots. double click the photo to open and enlarge it. Right click the photo. click "copy image location" or whatever your showing for copy the image location as a selection.
Go to the reply page of chatroom for the thread you want. Click the image icon 4th from the right. Right click and Paste the location in the text bar. Click ok and the image will appear in your post. If your not showing a image location to copy then right click on ' properties' on the bottom and copy the location. then go back to chatroom and paste it to the image icon text bar.

Last edited by Stubbie; 04-23-2008 at 10:20 AM.
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Old 04-23-2008, 10:55 AM   #73
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Now that I got the photo thing going, I will take some photos of the project and get them to you as soon as the rain stops. Probably tomorrow. Supposed to be raining all day today. I just looked out the window and now it is snowing AGAIN!!!!!! P.S. The photo is a small portion of our back yard.

Have a good one!!!! Cyndi
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Old 04-23-2008, 10:55 AM   #74
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Yes you can reduce the photo but just leave it big we like stuff that is easier to see. Is that your place?

OOPs I guess it is......
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Old 04-23-2008, 11:37 AM   #75
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I've been reading all the stuff that I can on this forum for electrical. I came across one that I want to get clear in my head....at least to the point of some understanding anyway.

It is regarding two circuits that share a common neutral.

I understand that the two circuits need to be wired into two separate breakers that are on different Phases.

When my dad told me how to wire the panel, I had the regular size 20 amp beakers in each slot. He said to always run one red and one black wire for two different circuits in one conduit run. This I did. He then said to always make sure that the red wire is on one breaker and the black is on the one next to it. He didn't explain why. Now I think I get it.

However, now I have two slims in each breaker slot. Therefore, I would not want to put a red wire one slim breaker and the black on the other if they are in the same breaker slot...right???? I would want to skip that slim and put the wire in the breaker above that one on a different breaker slot.

When my dad said one breaker red, one black he didn't clarify that it was the breaker slot that was critical. Do I get this right???

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