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Old 04-20-2008, 09:40 PM   #31
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Hi Cyndi

Well I'm glad your using emt because you have to have an equipment ground. I would prefer you pull in #12 green for your branch circuits and not rely on the metal conduit. The conduit is allowed to be your equipment ground if you want but if it comes apart anywhere you have a big safety issue.

I sure wish you had some knowledgeable help with your project but I'll do my best to get you through this from 2000 miles away.


The flat shaped bar if it is metal and connects to the neutral bar and is screwed into the panel back then that probably is the neutral bond. A picture would be nice.

Most photos have a file size that is too big for the manage attachements option at the bottom of the edit page. What you have to do is open a free account at a hosting site like photobucket or dropshots. I like dropshots. They allow free storing of pictures in an album format. You just upload your pics to the album then open the picture you want and right click on it and copy the image location then come to the edit page and click on the image icon just below the undo arrow. Paste in the image location and it will appear in your post.

You have taken on a pretty big project for your skill level so pay close attention to what we tell you. Be sure you have good solid connection to your metal boxes with your emt. Are you using gfci receptacles? Or gfci breakers?

It is very important ( your life important) that that emt is solidly connected all the way back to the subpanel. All fittings, boxes, and so forth. The emt is your equipment ground since you did not pull in ground wires.

I sure wish you would have come here before starting this project.

Here is a little article to help you with the equipment grounding when using metal boxes and emt. Click on the article images to make them bigger

http://www.mikeholt.com/newsletters.php?action=display&letterID=241


Last edited by Stubbie; 04-20-2008 at 09:47 PM.
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Old 04-20-2008, 09:57 PM   #32
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Stubbie- I did run ground wires from the panel to all of my outlets and lights. However, I don't have a ground rod installed from the panel to the ground yet and as you know I didn't run a ground wire from the main panel to the sub-panel. This is the next thing that I am going to do with the new panel that I purchase. I will run 4- #6 wires from the panel on the pole to the sub-panel in the barn as well as install a grounding rod. At least I think that is what you have advised on that part of the installation. I could pull the 3 #8 wires out and add a ground wire and run it back through temporarily, till I get the new panel and new size wiring if you think that would be the best thing to do. If it is the best thing to do at this point for safety, what size ground wire should I run through with the #8. Should it be the same size??? Also, should I go ahead and install 1 or 2 grounding rods??? If I do the above, I will also purchase an additional bar for the sub-panel so that I can separate the neutrals and grounds like it should have been done in the first place. If I do all of that, at least I would have a safer system until I can get a new panel and wiring. I won't be overloading any of the breakers as I will not be needing heaters and such till winter. I can have the new panel and 70amp breaker at the main panel done by then. What do ya think???

Cyndi
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Old 04-20-2008, 10:18 PM   #33
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Glad you have those ground wires.....

Well my best advice is that if it isn't to big of a hassle pull out the # 8's and add a ground wire. If you stay with a 40 amp breaker it only needs to be a #10 awg ground wire with the #8's. Get the ground bar kit and add it to the panel. Your are going to remove that neutral bar bonding we spoke of earlier and install the ground bar. The ground rods can be added when you get the time in the next few weeks but get them installed soon. Your going to connect those to the ground bar you installed with a #6 solid bare ground wire. The big box will have it on a spool just have them cut how many feet you need. Put it inside some pvc conduit for protection till you get it underground to the rods.

Your ground bar kit will be for a Murray panel made now by Seimens. Look in your panel you should see a pair or pairs of holes for ground bar(s).

If you can post up some pictures of the panel with the cover off this will help but it's ok if you can't do that.

So get the ground bar kit and some #10 green ground with thwn insulation. Pull out the 8's and reinstall with the #10 ground. Unbond the neutral bar install the ground bar and connect the feeder ground to the ground bar. You know where the others go. Only grounds on the ground bar including the ground rods #6. The branch circuit grounded legs (usually white also called neutrals) to the neutral bar.

At the 200 amp panel on the pole it is fine for grounds and grounded legs (white) to connect to the same bar it is supposed to be that way.

As an added note #8 thwn or other 75C rated wire can be protected by a 50 amp breaker. Give that a try you just might get by with that and good load balancing.

Last edited by Stubbie; 04-20-2008 at 10:47 PM.
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Old 04-20-2008, 10:28 PM   #34
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Stubbie- Thanks once again. That is what I will do for now. I will get all the needed supplies this week and then I will do the temporary fix until I can get the new panel, 70 amp breaker and #6 wiring. I can always use most of the supplies for the existing panel in another building down the road. One that does not require so many circuits!!!!!

I will try to get some photos to you. Cyndi
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Old 04-20-2008, 10:33 PM   #35
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Cyndi

I added a note on the last post at the bottom go back and read it. This might work out well for your needs and save the the cost of new wire and that 70 amp breaker.
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Old 04-20-2008, 10:41 PM   #36
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I managed to erase the added note somehow.. I'll put it back. Here is a very good site for some good information and tables for you to look at. #8 thwn in conduit is good for 50 amps as long as you have 75C connections on the pole panel. It would have to be very old not to be rated for 75C. Follow the 4 wire feeder diagram I posted earlier as a guide.

http://www.jhlarson.com/ind_tables/c...able310-16.htm

Last edited by Stubbie; 04-20-2008 at 10:45 PM.
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Old 04-20-2008, 10:47 PM   #37
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One last question to Stubbie for the night-

I looked at your link to the receptacle diagrams. My outlets have a ground wire from the panel to the green screw on the receptacle. I do not have a green ground screw in the metal box to the receptacle. Will that be o.k. after I change all the ground wires to the new ground bar that I install in the panel or do I need to have the ground wire to a screw in the metal receptacle box too?? Cyndi
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Old 04-20-2008, 10:50 PM   #38
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Oops that was the ampacity table try this one.....


http://www.jhlarson.com/ind_tables/ind_table.htm
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Old 04-20-2008, 10:52 PM   #39
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Your receptacles are fine the way I read how you have them grounded...good job....have a nice evening and don't dream about those goats.
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Old 04-20-2008, 11:27 PM   #40
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Cyndi

I'm sorry I misread how you have the receptacles connected to the equipment ground. There are actually a few ways but it would be best to connect a pigtail to the metal box along with the pigtail to the receptacle or switch. Connecting to the receptacle green screw only is incorrect. There are several situations where you don't have to connect to the green screw of the receptacle but you must have a pigtail to the metal box.

You will need to get some grounding screws when you go to town. In the back of the metal boxes is a threaded hole for a 10-32 ground screw. Connect your pigtail under the screw



These work very well to connect your branch circuit grounds and pigtail from the receptacle the metal box. Or you can make you own.


Of course the number of grounds and pigtails will vary... below is a example of a ground entering and leaving and the associated pigtails.
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Last edited by Stubbie; 04-21-2008 at 12:08 PM.
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Old 04-21-2008, 12:07 AM   #41
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Stubbie- I got your message and will add the screws to my list. Good Night and more tomorrow!!!
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Old 04-21-2008, 01:22 AM   #42
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Great.... have a nice evening you probably have a long day tomorrow.
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Old 04-21-2008, 12:22 PM   #43
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Cyndi.

A little lesson for you so you understand why the importance of the equipment ground. All your metal is bonded to the equipment ground....boxes, conduit, metal yokes on your receptacles and switches. The equipment ground then goes all the way back unbroken to the 200 amp panel on the pole where it then bonds with the service neutral along with all your branch circuit neutrals and grounded legs. The service neutral then goes to the center tap of the transformer. All your current returns to the source. Fault current when something goes wrong also goes back to the source. The source being the utility transformer. The fault current follows the effective ground fault path that you build and put together as you wire your barn. If you have a fault as I have shown in the diagram below the fault current follows the green or bare safety ground wires wires back the the bonding with the service neutral at your 200 amp panel out on the pole. Then out the service neutral to the center tap of the transformer. This low impedance or resistance path allows enough current to flow to exceed the trip rating on your circuit breaker and cause the breaker to open the circuit and clear the fault. Keeps you from going through that little event when you were 29 years old. GFCI's also play an important role in what you doing out there in the barn. Anyway this diagram will give you a good idea of what happens if you have the bare part of a hot wire touch a metal box. In the case of the drawing lets say you skinned the hot wire pulling it through your conduit and the exposed bare part of the hot wire contacted the metal box. Click the image to enlarge.
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Last edited by Stubbie; 04-21-2008 at 12:41 PM.
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Old 04-21-2008, 01:27 PM   #44
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Good Afternoon Stubbie!

I have spent most of the morning on the internet looking for needed parts at Home Depot and Lowe's. I do have a few questions.....Of Course.......

After a sleepless night thinking about this project, it seems to make more sense to me......correct me if I am wrong........ to just run the # 6 four wires a new panel. If I am going to pull the #8 wires out anyway, I may as well replace them with the #6 wires.

I just hate to do it the other way and then wonder if I did it good enough.

Lowe's has a GE panel. 100 amp with a Main breaker . It has 12 spaces and 24 circuits. It comes with four 20 amp breakers and a 24 hole ground bar. $54.00.
Will that do?? Will a Cutler Hammer, SquareD or ITE 70 amp breaker fit my Challenger panel??? No one seems to have a Challenger Brand 70 amp breaker.

I am going to keep the 40 amp breaker off to the barn since I can do without the electric for now. In the mean time, I am also going to get all the grounding items completed.

When you say I need to pigtail the ground wiring from the panel to a green screw in the back of the metal box, one that I install, does that mean I will end up with 3 green wires capped together? One from the panel , one from the light fixture box screw and and then one going on to the next light??? That's how I understand it.

Then for the duplex receptacles, I would have the ground coming from the panel to the receptacle box, a ground on the ground screw in the box, a ground on the receptacle and one going to the next receptacle making 4 wires capped together??

If I have that right, I will get busy and fix that portion of the system before I continue.

Let me know you electrical GURU!!!! Cyndi
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Old 04-21-2008, 02:04 PM   #45
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Stubbie- I've been thinking....yeah it does hurt!.... and I wanted to let you know why I decided to tackle this job in the first place. My dad was a Master Electrician and was visiting last August. He knew I needed electrical done but he has severe COPD and could't do the work as he had hoped. He stood by and told me everything that I needed to do. Or so I thought.

After having an electrician stop by to look at some goats for sale last week, I told him about my electrical project and he took a look. To his surprise, and mine, he immediately observed the deficiencies.

When I called my dad, last week, who is 72 and asked him some questions, his response was....."oh, I thought we did run a #8 ground wire from the main panel to the sub-panel. and "Well I thought we did ground the light fixtures to the boxes and the receptacles. Although it breaks my heart, I think he is starting to forget.

At that point, I went onto the internet and found you. And for this I am greatful. Please bare with me and be as patient as you can be. I really want to understand and will do my best to do it right this time. I do understand the safety aspects while working on electrical and will take all the necessary precautions. Let's just take it slow and I am confident that together we can build a safe system for thebarn. I'm in no hurry. Better Safe Than Sorry!!! If I am taking up too much of your time, just let me know and we can take a break!!!!! Cyndi

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