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Old 04-20-2008, 11:34 AM   #16
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Cyndi

The 200 amps for the house is great and should support your shelters needs provide you don't have that panel maxed out as to load from the demand at the house. This will have nothing to do with the sum of the breakers in the panel!!

I would suggest biting the bullet and getting a main breaker panel with enough circuits for your needs. It is possible to put a main breaker in a main lug panel if it is a convertible panel but I need the Model#. However you will find that the cost for a new panel is going to be about the same as a main breaker kit.

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Old 04-20-2008, 11:35 AM   #17
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J.V. Hi!!! I did run the wire within underground conduit to the barn sub-panel. Cyndi
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Old 04-20-2008, 11:43 AM   #18
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Cyndi

We are posting so close together its hard to keep up....

There is a lot to explain.

You have a Murray panel at the barn/shelter correct? What I am saying is replace it with a main breaker panel. I am understanding it to be a main lug only with no main breaker in it.

You won't do anything to your 200 amp panel.
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Old 04-20-2008, 12:02 PM   #19
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Stubbie-

O.K. Let's start all over per your directions. I will get another panel. In the mean time, I will get my lighting up and going for at least part of the barn so that I can do some work at night running the EMT throughout. I don't need to use heaters at this point anyway but I will need it by this fall and winter.

Again, the panel with the meter on the outside pole near the house is a 200 amp panel with the 40 amp breaker to the barn, 50 amp breaker to the well controls and pump, a 20 amp breaker for a GFCI outlet on the pole and a 30 amp outlet that we really don't need or use.

The inside panel that is fed from the pole panel in our manufactured home is a 200 amp. Our home is all electric. We have no Air Conditioning. Electric Range, dishwasher, refrig, microwave, heat, lighting and I did want to put a couple baseboard heaters in our family room which only has wood heat at this time. One 8 foot and 2 four foot heaters is what I was hoping for.

So let's start with this info and if you need more let me know.

O.K., so I need to replace the barn panel with one that has a main shut off breaker. Do I stick with a 125 amp panel or should I go with a 200 amp breaker panel in the barn???

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Old 04-20-2008, 12:37 PM   #20
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Cyndi

Get a 100 amp main breaker load center (sub-panel) that has 12 spaces that will give you 24 single pole circuits using the tandem breakers ( slim jims as you call them)....

Look at this page for Murray load centers....for reference...any make will do.

http://cmsapps.sea.siemens.com/murra...y_01/01_05.pdf

Lets go through this

1.) Install a 70 amp breaker in the 200 amp panel on the pole.
2.) Pull in 3 #6 awg copper thwn conductors (H-H-N) and use one of your black #8's for the ground. Reidentify it as the equipment ground by wrapping green tape at each end over about 6 inches of the insulation. This will save you some dollars.
3.) Install a ground bar kit (for the make of panel) in the new main breaker panel if it doesn't have a factory one. You will have two bars the neutral and the ground.
4.) Drive a couple ground rods and run a #6 solid copper from the panel ground bar to those rods make it look like the below image. Only you won't be coming from the meter but I think you get the idea. be sure to use the direct burial ground rod clamps not anything else.


Last edited by Stubbie; 04-20-2008 at 06:54 PM.
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Old 04-20-2008, 12:48 PM   #21
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One little thing to what I posted. The electrical code will only allow conductors larger than #6 awg to be reidentified for equipment grounds if they are not green or bare or green and yellow striped. So to be code compliant not necessarily safer you must pull in a green insulated #8 awg copper equipment ground. I'll let you decide. If cost isn't a big deal pull in the #8 copper green insulated equipment ground.

Last edited by Stubbie; 04-20-2008 at 06:47 PM.
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Old 04-20-2008, 03:52 PM   #22
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Cyndi

Forgot to tell you not to pay any attention to those prices on the Murray link. Those are considerably higher than you will actually encounter at the big box stores or hardware.

Also be sure if you are going to operate on the murray panel for a while and a 3 wire feeder that you have the neutral bar bonded to the metal of the panel.

I'm not sure what part of the country you live in but ground rods can be a little tough to sledge hammer into the ground. a t-post driver works pretty good till you get down to where you can drive it with a sledge. the two alternatives to diving one straight down is to drive at a 45 degree angle or in a 30 inch trench. Vertically into the ground is preferred. The rental store will have hammer drills with ground rod chucks and these work very well to get the ground rod in.
For your information ground rods are for protection from lightning and large voltage events. They are designed to be a path for generated high currents to earth and get them off your premise wiring. They do not help breakers trip this is the job of the equipment grounds of the branch circuits and the ground wire in your feeder coming from the 200 amp panel.



Last edited by Stubbie; 04-20-2008 at 03:57 PM.
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Old 04-20-2008, 04:07 PM   #23
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Hey Stubbie-

I'll probably be in the barn till about 9 pm your time. I'm going to wire in the lights and switch on the left side and split the outlets into two circuits like you suggested. That will be easy as I already had enough wires in the conduit for 3 total circuits to begin with. I will just use two of the three for that wall and the other for the back wall. I'll run an additional 2 circuits around to the right wall later. No big deal.

The ground here is very soft and sandy. Not a problem for driving in a ground rod.

I'm 2 hours from any descent supply house or Home Depot. I will have to plan out what I need to make the needed changes and then run into the big town of Spokane!! Davenport doesn't have much in the way of Hardware stores.

I sure appreciate your assistance since I am so new at this. This whole thing has been my first project. Nothing like starting big!!!!!

I'm 49 years old and have never had any electrical experience unless you consider being shocked at 29 years old an electrical experience....ha..ha. I'll get in touch tomorrow. THANKS AGAIN....YOU ARE GRRRRRRREAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Cyndi

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Old 04-20-2008, 04:45 PM   #24
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Hey Stubie, sorry to butt in. Do you really need to run a green bonding wire from the house if you install 2 new ground rods? What's the reasoning on that?

- pete

BTW one of the best threads I've read so far, Stubie is very good and Cyndi is on the ball!

and...I like the idea of new grounding rods, here in Québec it's mandatory if the sub-panel is located in a barn with animals. (poor critters hate stray currents)
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Old 04-20-2008, 05:44 PM   #25
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Bonsoir Pete .,,

Oui.,,

the NEC just changed the code not too long ago now we have to run 4 wire feeder to the subpanel location.

Quote:
I like the idea of new grounding rods, here in Québec it's mandatory if the sub-panel is located in a barn with animals.
oui C'est vari.

Merci,Marc
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Old 04-20-2008, 06:41 PM   #26
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Quote:
Hey Stubie, sorry to butt in. Do you really need to run a green bonding wire from the house if you install 2 new ground rods? What's the reasoning on that?
Hello Handy

The green bonding wire is for an effective low impedance fault current path back to the service panel and then back to the center tap of the transformer (the source). This facilitates the opening of a circuit breaker in the event of a ground fault. I'm not sure what type conduit Cyndi used but I assume it is pvc.

The ground rods have nothing to do with the green bonding wire (equipment ground) in the feeder. The rods are for lightning and high voltage events, they do not clear faults. They are meant for property protection. the bonding wire or EGC is for human safety to open the circuit breaker in the event of fault to ground or bonded metal.


I believe Washington has required 4 wire feeders for a couple code cycles so she would have needed to do this to be compliant with state electrical codes.
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Old 04-20-2008, 06:49 PM   #27
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Cyndi


Are you using the EMT as your equipment ground or are you pulling in a green equipment ground wire?

Never work in that barn panel while it is hot go out to the pole and turn that 40 amp breaker off. And make freakin sure no one can turn it back on without you knowing that information. Tie your mean ass dog or goat to the pole to keep anyone away from it while your working on the electrical.

Also to refresh your memory, you are going to need a 4 wire feeder from the pole service equipment to the new main breaker panel in the barn.

At present you are using a 3 wire feeder thats OK but get this changed as soon as your able to do so. Be absolutely sure you have the neutral bar bonded to the metal of the panel at the barn while you use that 3 wire feeder.

When you get the new panel your going to do things differently. This will depend on the panel you buy but it will need two bars in it.. one will be for the neutrals (whites) and one will be for the bares and any greens. The neutral bar will be the one from the factory installed in the panel on insulators when you purchase it. If the panel has two bars in it then one may possibly be used as the ground bar but it depends so be sure you know how to do the bonding with the panel you buy . If not come back to this forum and we will help you figure it out.

Remember with a 4 wire feeder you will not bond the neutral to the metal of the panel or to the ground bar. Only the ground bar will be bonded to the the metal. A ground kit is required when a panel only comes with one neutral bar. The factory mounting screws that come with the ground bar kit will do the required bonding. These kits will mount in predrilled holes in the back of the panel. The kits must be for the make of panel you purchase. They look like this.....might be smaller in size but you get the idea.


Last edited by Stubbie; 04-20-2008 at 07:24 PM.
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Old 04-20-2008, 07:54 PM   #28
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Back again!! Did you miss me???? ha ha. Well I got the flourescent lights all hooked up and working for now. That is it until I get a new panel.

I did use underground pvc for the conduit from the main pole panel to the barn.

You wanted to know if I am using emt as equipment ground or pulling in a green ground wire. I don't think I am using anything at this time but for the new panel, I will pull in a green wire with the others like you suggested before. Is that what you mean or are you talking about the current panel????

Also, as far as working with the 40 amp breaker off, I GOT IT . I was electrocuted when I was 29 and it stopped my heart causing damage to the muscle. I am VERY careful!!!! I work on the panel and no one else is here. Good idea about the mean-ass dog or goat!!!!!!!

You also said that while I have the 3 wires going without the ground wire installed, the neutral bar should be bonded to the metal of the panel. I think it is but how can I be sure? Is it the flat shaped bar that goes from the bar and screws into the back of the panel??? Thanks again. Cyndi
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Old 04-20-2008, 08:14 PM   #29
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Hey, can anyone tell me how I can import photos into my messages if need be??? That way if I am not sure what you are asking, I can send a picture. Thanks, Cyndi
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Old 04-20-2008, 09:28 PM   #30
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Cyndi,

one of the easiest things is to go to a site like photobucket.com and open up an account. Then upload all your photos there and cut and paste the links to the pictures in your posts.

Stubbie,

Keep up the good work.

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