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Old 04-27-2008, 09:33 PM   #181
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Nice picture Cyndi.

I agree with Stubbie 100% on running a ground wire inside the EMT in a barn or animal building. I just wasn't aware you did that. He has you doing the right thing with the grounds in the boxes and on the receptacles.

Stubbie didn't answer yet, so I'll take on the ground rod questions. 6 feet apart minimum. I prefer the rods outside and out just past the drip line of the roof, in dirt that gets moist from rain from time to time. Your ground rod wire only needs to be one piece to the first rod. But then you will need an extra clamp to run to the second rod. Only 1 wire is allowed in a clamp. Yes the rods will be sunk below the ground along with the wire. We don't want you tripping and falling down. Or Gaylord getting hurt. If you are having an inspection, make sure the inspector can see them before burying them.


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Old 04-27-2008, 11:12 PM   #182
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Hi Cyndi

I see John has saved me some typing.

As for unbonding the BR panel from the ground you do not install the little bar with the green screw.

Should look like image below.


How many bars came factory installed 1 or 2 ?

Is this what you have?


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Old 04-28-2008, 07:32 AM   #183
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This Stubbie is Grrrreat!!! Really takes time to describe things to the details!
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Old 04-28-2008, 09:07 AM   #184
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All the Cutler Hammer BR panels I have bought, do not have the main bonding jumper connected. It is bolted to the bottom of the can, but turned to the side and not inserted into the neutral bus. It will be interesting to see what Cyndi finds in her new panel.
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Old 04-28-2008, 09:29 AM   #185
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Hi Cydni

Another lesson and it is more for other diyers searching the forums than for you because I think you understand the separation of the neutral and ground. But may be this will clear up a few gray areas or give you more gray hairs.....

To explain why I asked about two neutral bars in your panel or one....Many panels including cutler hammer BR and CH have what is called split neutral or twin neutral designs. These are the panels that have 2 factory installed neutral bars that can be bonded to the metal of the panel with your little strap shown in the image earlier. If your 125 amp panel has 2 factory installed neutral bars you will notice that both are set on insulated standoffs which keep them from being connected to the metal of the panel. And on BR panels of this type you will notice a nylon sleeve running along the back of the panel.

This sleeve insulates a thin flat metal strap that goes between the neutral bars from the metal of the panel and it is what they use to bond the two neutral bars together (but not the neutral bars to the metal of the panel) essentially making them one neutral bar electrically.

The little main bonding jumper shown earlier is used to bond the neutral bar(s) to the metal of the panel to include it in the effective fault current path. You do not use this bonding jumper on sub-panels with 4 wire feeders like yours.


If you notice in the image below this BR panel has a spilt neutral so you simply do not connect that jumper to the neutral bar it is next to in your situation.

I think you are clear on this but I want you to understand the why of it.

You will then see some factory drilled pairs of holes to mount the ground bar kits. The mounting screws will bond these bars to the metal of the panel. So if the metal of the panel by accident gets energized by a hot wire the fault current will flow to the ground bar and use the feeder equipment ground which is connected to that ground bar to get pack to the pole panel to the transformer and facilitate the trip out of the breaker in the sub-panel where the fault originates and the fault will clear.

The reason we want that bonding jumper removed is to keep neutral current from using that bonding jumper to get to the metal of the panel then flowing to the ground bar and then using the feeder equipment ground to get back to the source transformer. Neutral current will now be pretty much evenly split with 1/2 using the feeder neutral to get back to the source and the other half using the equipment ground of the feeder. This is a parallel path with neutral current on both the neutral of the feeder and the equipment ground of the feeder. We don't want neutral current on the equipment ground!!

So when that bonding jumper is removed we have eliminated the path for neutral current to get to the ground bar.

Hope that wasn't to confusing....

Use the image below to help you understand what I explained. This is a BR load center with twin neutral design. If your load center is only one neutral bar then the concept is the same you just don't have a second neutral bar and removing the jumper when it is connected to the bar itself unbonds the bar to the metal of the panel. In the picture the jumper is of course not connected to the neutral bar and therefore no bonding is taking place to the neutral.
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Help if it's not too late!!-br-loadcenter.jpg  

Last edited by Stubbie; 04-28-2008 at 09:45 AM.
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Old 04-28-2008, 12:35 PM   #186
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I forgot to mention the freakin Square d ground bar Randy was sold. That's a shame that they didn't know it was not going to fit a BR panel from cutler hammer. Thing to remember with the big box stores is it is very common for this type of thing to happen. It is not a place to take advice, just present a materials list and tell them that is what you want and that an electrician told you to get the items on the list. Don't elaborate or you are going to get results that will be very confusing. When buying accessories for electrical panels at the big box... if it isn't made by the same manufacturer it likely will not be correct.

I apologize for not telling you that Randy needed to get a ground bar kit acceptable only to cutler hammer. that was my oversite. I just didn't think that would be one of the things they would get wrong.

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Old 04-28-2008, 01:03 PM   #187
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Hey Stubbie- That is the panel configuration that I got. I understand the principle of it all and figured that little green screw and little bar should be removed. Thanks.

Also I think you made it clear to me that the ground bar needed to be for that particular panel. Randy also knew but didn't double check. He figured that wasn't something he had to check on but .......guess so!!

I am busy digging holes to uncover all the underground runs. I called the Labor and Industries to get this all legal. It did open a little can of worms but it will be worth it in the end I hope. At least it will be legal!!!!!

The inspector was real nice and said normally they would make me dig up the entire runs. All 700+ feet of them. He said to just dig up a spot every 15-20 feet and he would let it go without a citation. Whew!!!! I got two holes dug (by shovel) this morning so far. The conduit is 30" deep. That is a lot of digging!!! I only have 35 more holes to go!!!!!!!!

Once I get the holes dug, he will come out and then I can continue with all the information that you have given me. I'm sure I'll be bugging you still!!!

Talk to ya later and Thanks for now. Enjoy your break from the Newbie girl!!! Cyndi
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Old 04-28-2008, 01:20 PM   #188
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Hi Cyndi

I'm glad you talked to the inspector about getting your project inspected. You made another great decision....

As for the conduit being thirty inches deep I assume you must have put it in with the water line trenches. Wow! that is going to be a lot of diggin. For your information PVC only needed to be 18" deep. The biggest deal if electrical is in the same trench with water is there may be a separation requirement of say 12" or so. Maybe you can make the inspector some of those cookies and you will not have to dig so many freakin holes......
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Old 04-28-2008, 02:21 PM   #189
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The water lines are 4-5 foot deep and then the excavator back filled it to leave the rest open for electrical. Wish he would have filled it in more. I got 3 holes dug now but one I've gone 36 inches and haven't hit anything. the problem is the trenches were about 24 inches wide and the conduit could have been on one side or the other. You're right...a lot of diggin for an ol gal. I'm tired!!!!! I figure I will finish finding this spot and then maybe do one more for the day. At this rate it should take me a week or two!!!!

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Old 04-28-2008, 02:32 PM   #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyndi View Post
The water lines are 4-5 foot deep and then the excavator back filled it to leave the rest open for electrical. Wish he would have filled it in more. I got 3 holes dug now but one I've gone 36 inches and haven't hit anything. the problem is the trenches were about 24 inches wide and the conduit could have been on one side or the other. You're right...a lot of diggin for an ol gal. I'm tired!!!!! I figure I will finish finding this spot and then maybe do one more for the day. At this rate it should take me a week or two!!!!

Cyndi
I would call the inspector and ask if you could dig less holes. One at each end and one in the middle would show him what he needs to see. Tell him how hard it is for you to dig. It's worth a phone call. Good luck.
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Old 04-28-2008, 03:25 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by mr500 View Post
Down here we love them with fries, hush puppies, baked beans, cole slaw..LOL. Redneck dinner I suppose. Having fish fries and knocking down a few cold ones. Maybe even pitch some horseshoes!! lol.

When my kids were little we used to go to Indian Rocks Beach Florida every year on vacation. There was a restaurant called the Hungry Fisherman that served the best damn hush puppies ever. I have never been able to get them that good ever again. I would be eternally grateful if you could tell me the secret to good hush puppies
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Old 04-28-2008, 06:25 PM   #192
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Silk- did you post about the hush-puppies by mistake. I haven't made those for years. Cyndi

No, a few pages ago in this thread mr500 said he makes hush puppies, and I haven't had any good hush puppies in probably 20 years cause I live up north and nobody up here has even heard of them.

Do you make good hush puppies? If you do I'll be your BFF (Best Friend Forever)
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Old 04-28-2008, 08:05 PM   #193
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Besides the slippers I had when I was a kid, what's a hush puppy?
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Old 04-28-2008, 09:03 PM   #194
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Hush Puppies recipe

1-1/2 cups cornmeal
1-1/2 cup water
1/3 cup of milk
1 Tablespoon Vegetable Oil
2 teasp. grated onion
2 eggs beaten
1 cup flour
3 teasp. baking power
2 teasp. salt
1 teasp. sugar
oil for deep frying

Over medium heat, cook cornmeal and water, stirring until batter becomes stiff and begins to roll into a ball....about 6 minutes.
Remove from heat and stir in milk, oil and onion.
Gradually stir batter into beaten eggs in a large bowl.
Sift flour, baking powder, sugar and salt together. Blend into cornmeal batter.

Drop batter by teaspoonfuls into heated oil (350 degrees).
Fry until golden brown...6-7 minutes turning once in the process.

Drain on paper towel.....and EAT!!! YUMMY!! This is my mom's recipe. Let me know if you survive!!!
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Old 04-28-2008, 09:08 PM   #195
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Here's a recipe from the internet that sound Spicey Good. Try it and let me know how great it is!!!

We ate a lot of cornmeal based foods when I was
growing up because corn meal was cheap. In fact,
we could even take grain to the local mill and
have it ground into flour, meal, livestock feed,
etc. Cornbread or biscuits were almost always
served at any meal I attended at many houses in
the neighborhood. They were usually pretty good
too, although I preferred the lighter tasting
hush puppies. Eaten fresh out of the fryer, they
practically melted in your mouth. Here is my
recipe:

Ingredients:
2 cups yellow corn meal
1 cup plain flour (flour is what gave it the
lighter taste and you can experiment with the
amount you use if you want)
2 eggs
1 cup buttermilk (you can also use plain milk in
a pinch, but nothing compares to buttermilk)
3/4 teaspoon seasoned salt. I use Lowreys but just
about any brand will work as you are just looking
for something to spice things up a little
1/2 teaspoon ground pepper blend (again, the idea
is to spice things up a little).
1 teaspoon baking powder
2/3 teaspoon baking soda
1/8 cup bacon grease. This is another big key to
the flavor. In a pinch you can use other types
of cooking oil, but bacon is my favorite.

You also need some type of cooking oil to deep fry
these in. I usually use Crisco oil although peanut oil
and some of the lower fat oils work well too.

Mix all of the dry ingredients in a bowl. Add your
eggs, oil, and buttermilk. Stir it all up until
the flavors are thoroughly blended.

Turn your cooker on medium-high heat. When it's
hot you can drop your hush puppies in using a
table spoon. Allow them to brown on all sides.
They should begin floating when done, but if they
don't, don't overcook them.

Serve as a side dish with just about any meal. I
loved eating them with fried catfish or fresh
chopped or pulled pork barbecue. Most of the local
resturants added them as a standard feature when you
bought plate meals.

After getting to Alaska, I visited a restaurant that
also added yellow corn to their hush puppies and a
touch of sugar. If you want to give this a try,
precook the corn, but don't overcook it. Use 3/4 cups
in the recipe above. On top of that add 2 table spoons
of white sugar. The recipe at the restaurant in
Alaska was so popular that customers often ordered
side orders to take home. I always though that it
tasted pretty good.

You can also store this mixture in the refrigerator
for a day or so if you are only cooking for a smaller
group. Before cooking let it reach near room
temperature.

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