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Old 04-25-2008, 06:47 PM   #151
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Help if it's not too late!!


the panel sticker inside the door says Challenger. The breaker on the upper right is a 50 amp breaker for the well system. The bottom 40 amp is for the barn sub-panel and they are Murray. The 30 and 20 above don't have a name on them.

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Old 04-25-2008, 06:53 PM   #152
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Ok let me get them identified I think the challengers? are type C full size version.

I'll get back Cyndi

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Old 04-25-2008, 07:11 PM   #153
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O.K. the 50 amp is a Westinghouse HACR type
The 20 amp is a Westinghouse HACR type
The 30 amp is a Seimens QP type
The 40 amp to the barn is a Murray MPT

Have fun dancing and I'll get the list of goods when Randy gets home.
I guess Challenger is now Westinghouse?? According to the supply house. They have a 90 amp breaker that will fit the Challenger panel for $35.00 Not Bad.
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Old 04-25-2008, 10:12 PM   #154
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Ok that all makes sense. The 40 and 30 Murrays are very similar to challenger type A's not C's. Types A's are 1/2" size not full size 1 inch like yours.
It appears the electrician played the replacement breaker game in your panel the Westinghouse is a replacement breaker for challenger TYPE C which is the brand name that panel accepts. I can't find anything about the Murrays or Seimens being replacements for Challenger type C.

But your in luck!! Cutler hammer purchased Westinghouse who owned Challenger. The Challenger Type C which fits your pole panel can be replaced by Cutler Hammer BR breakers. These are common as day and are easily obtained at the home centers.... Lowes or Home Depot or many other stores. And they are listed direct replacements by cutler hammer. The cutler hammer BR load centers are also designed to allow replacement with challenger C and Westinghouse and Bryant.

So there you go a stroke of luck. It could be that Randy bought a Cutler Hammer BR load center at Home Depot for the sub in the barn.

Speaking of the barn that is a very nice photo and you are well on your way to lighting that baby up now. Soooo if you want you can put the #2 aluminum on a 90,80,or 70 cutler hammer type BR. If you want to spend the difference in price (about 9 bucks) between a 70 amp double pole and a 90 amp double pole that will set you up for the future and no more changes needed.

Edited: I just noticed your comment on the Westinghouse 90 amp breaker..... that is fine if you want that breaker and a darn good price. That will give you the maximum amperage out of your feeder to the sub and you will be set for the future. But remember the cutler hammer BR's they will be easier to get.

Yes Westinghouse bought challenger then Cutler Hammer bought Westinghouse/Challenger

Stubbie

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Old 04-25-2008, 11:32 PM   #155
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Stubbie- Did ya have a boot scootin time???

Randy finally got home after his work and brought a truck load of elec. stuff too!!! He did get a Cutler Hammer BR panel. 125 with a factory installed 125 breaker.

We still have to find #2 Alum. wire for one more strand. Home Depot only had 250 feet total and I need 3 @ 120 feet each. The place that has the Challenger breaker should have the wire too. I forgot to ask them. Regardless we won't be going back to Spokane till Monday and we definitely are not going back to Home Depot. Therefore, I can't pull the feed wire but I can do other stuff.

Should I secure the new panel to the wall and hook everything else up or will that be too hard to pull the wire up and out with the panel already secured? I guess maybe I could just leave some of the breakers off of the bus bar and that will give me room to pull the wires up and out of the PVC.

Did I answer my own question?????

Well, Nighty-nite for tonight and I will probably talk to you tomorrow.

Cyndi
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Old 04-25-2008, 11:54 PM   #156
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One more thing before I hit the sack. I was reading back through the whole thread just to get things clear and make sure that I am not missing anything, and, a while back you mentioned that the circuits that run out far should have #10 wire instead of #12. I measured today and one circuit (by itself) runs 120' to the horse arena, there is one at 170' to the llama pen and then goes on another 220' to the goat pen. The latter being on a shared neutral.

I was going to change the receptacles to GFCIs tomorrow, however, if I need to buy different wire and all, I will wait so I only have to do it once. I have plenty of other circuits to run that can use the #12 wire that I pull out if I need to pull it.

Let me know when you have a chance. I plan on starting tomorrow morn. Have a good one you night owl. Cyndi
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Old 04-26-2008, 07:04 AM   #157
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Hi Cyndi

It is early morning here and I'm doing a trench today to a horse barn and hanging two panels. Just got the permit so gotta get moving on it instead of playing and fishing. Being retired I take a side once in a while to help buy my toys. My brother in law is new in the trade so he is coming along to get the hands on experience but I wish I could bend conduit like he does. Boy is he good at it......
I'm not any good painting like you, though I have a friend that is very talented in that area. He paints mostly mountain scenes. I wish I could have that skill it looks genuinely fun.

I'll be back on later today.

PS.. the dancing was fun, it is something we do together so that we stay married....


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Old 04-26-2008, 09:16 AM   #158
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JR- Here is the photo I tried to send over the e-mail. Yup he's a Spitter. His name is Gaylord (Perry)
I don't know if I'd want to meet him in the woods. Some people around me raise llamas and alpacas. And bison also.

That dummy at Home Depot should be transfered to the potted plant department.

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Old 04-26-2008, 10:31 AM   #159
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Hey Jr-

I guess Stubbie won't be around today.... busy busy!! I will be working on some of the electrical later today. About noon our time. One thing that I need to know.....I did'nt get an answer from Stubbie cause I probably asked the question prematurely.

I originally had 3 circuits running in one emt from the left side wall of the barn around the back side wall of the barn. 2 Neutrals in the conduit. There are 6 outlets on the left and I haven't installed the 6 on the rear side. I was originally going to run one circuit for the left, one circuit for the rear and continue the third circuit around for the right side of the barn.

Stubbie recommended that I split the 6 outlets on the left as they will be hooked up to heaters and heat lamps etc. (Too much for one circuit.)

If I do that, and if I understand how a shared neutral works now, I would want the 6 outlets on the left wall to be on one shared neutral (two circuits) as they will carry a similar load and the six on the back wall to be on their own neutral as they are for my power tools and will not be used regularly. Is that right???

If it is, then I will run another emt conduit around to the right side and split those 6 outlets as well for additional heaters and heat lamps later.

Does that make sense???? Thanks, Cyndi
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Old 04-26-2008, 10:40 AM   #160
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JR- As far as the Home Depot guys, they do this to us every time. Then after an hour of their debating, I start doubting myself. I started thinking that maybe I didn't explain things to Stubbie correctly. They had my head swimming by the time they were done!!!!! I am so glad that Stubbie was on line at the time. At least I had someone that knew what they were talking about and could re-assure me that I had the information correct in the first place.

As far as Gaylord.......he is a rescue llama/alpaca cross with an attitude. He needs a girlfriend cause he is getting pretty aggressive and frustrated. If not, he needs to be neutered or something!!!!!

Anyway, join in the fun and frustration with me and Stubbie anytime. Thanks. Cyndi
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Old 04-26-2008, 01:02 PM   #161
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Hey Jr-

I guess Stubbie won't be around today.... busy busy!! I will be working on some of the electrical later today. About noon our time. One thing that I need to know.....I did'nt get an answer from Stubbie cause I probably asked the question prematurely.

I originally had 3 circuits running in one emt from the left side wall of the barn around the back side wall of the barn. 2 Neutrals in the conduit. There are 6 outlets on the left and I haven't installed the 6 on the rear side. I was originally going to run one circuit for the left, one circuit for the rear and continue the third circuit around for the right side of the barn.

Stubbie recommended that I split the 6 outlets on the left as they will be hooked up to heaters and heat lamps etc. (Too much for one circuit.)

If I do that, and if I understand how a shared neutral works now, I would want the 6 outlets on the left wall to be on one shared neutral (two circuits) as they will carry a similar load and the six on the back wall to be on their own neutral as they are for my power tools and will not be used regularly. Is that right???

If it is, then I will run another emt conduit around to the right side and split those 6 outlets as well for additional heaters and heat lamps later.

Does that make sense???? Thanks, Cyndi
You are correct. The shared neutral and the 2 hot wires to the left. 3 outlets on each hot wire and the neutral to all 6. Then the remaining hot and neutral to the back wall.
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Old 04-26-2008, 01:26 PM   #162
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JR- As far as the Home Depot guys, they do this to us every time. Then after an hour of their debating, I start doubting myself.
Anyway, join in the fun and frustration with me and Stubbie anytime. Thanks. Cyndi
I understand about Home Depot. Just so you know, I like to pay them back in my own fun way. I seldom shop there, but my wife buys certain things there and at other big box type places. While she shops, I go look for the resident "master electrician." I make up a project and start asking questions. Then I get a good chuckle at the wrong and sometimes silly answers I get. Some times it gets downright funny. Then my wife will show up and ask if I am ready to go. Great way to kill time.

But the big thing is not to trust them. They are wrong way more often then they are correct. I don't suppose there is a supply house in your area where the electricians and contractors buy their materials? That would be a much better choice than HD.
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Old 04-26-2008, 07:02 PM   #163
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JR-Thanks for the answer. I forgot to reply. I didn't get much accomplished today. I mostly got organized with all the supplies Randy came home with. It looks like most of the holes in the new panel won't line up real well with the conduit that comes in from underground runs. Oh well. My other panel had all the runs clustered together. The knock outs for this new panel has them spread out. We'll see how it goes. I may be cutting and fitting again!!

I'm not worried about the other 1/2 inch emt runs to the outlets and lights. That will be an easy fix if need be. There aren't that many installed yet.

It took me 2 hours to find the ground screws that Randy brought home the other day. He forgot to tell me they were still in the trunk of the car!!!! That was one of the main things that I was going to do today is make sure all the metal boxes were grounded. I have a heck of a time getting all the wires back in the boxes behind the receptacles. Man what a pain. It really hurts my fingers and hands. It is still fairly cold here and I imagine it makes it a little harder for the wires to bend too. Maybe not?? I don't know.

Thanks again for letting me know that I got the info straight on the shared neutral circuits. I appreciate that. I guess some of this stuff is soaking in!!

P.S. I'd love to see you in action at HOME DEPOT!!!!

Well, gotta go. Cyndi
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Old 04-26-2008, 07:17 PM   #164
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I'm just a little confused by your grounding the boxes comment. The emt conduit is an approved ground. Do you have a local code I'm missing? I'm to lazy to go back and reread all the posts.

I agree about working in the cold. Fingers and wire both bend harder in the cold.

It's good that you are understanding why as well as how. That is a good thing.

Good fishing joke. My wife agreed.
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Old 04-26-2008, 07:29 PM   #165
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I am supposed to pull all the receptacles out of the metal boxes and add a ground screw to the back of the box pigtailing a #12 ground wire to it. Same thing for the light fixtures to make sure the system is safe.

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