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tigerbalm2424 12-04-2007 04:08 PM

Help with house circuits! (ALMOST FULL)
 
100AMP service, 20 spaces. I would like to try to finish basement without upgrading to 200AMP or getting new 100AMP with more spaces. All spaces but one are currently occupied although some are not being utilized. Currently, my basement is unfinished and I need to finish it. Currently only one outlet and one light switch in basement(currently on circuit with upstairs outlets/lites).

- eight spaces for Range, Dryer, A/C, and hot tub.
- one 15 AMP for furnace
- one slot open
- three 15amp slots are packed with outlets/lights
- one 20 AMP for one GFCI outlet (upstairs bathroom)
- two 20 AMPs for kitchen (one circuit has 5 outlets inlcuding fridge, one circuit has only two outlets not being used)
- one 20 AMP labeled laundry (no circuit yet)
- one 15 AMP dishwasher
- one 15 AMP disposal (no disposal yet)
- one 20 AMP garage service

Questions:
1. could I put both bathroom GFCI's on one 20AMP circuit? (would only be two outlets in total)
2. Is an entire circuit required for only the disposal?
3. Where could I use the thin 15 breakers (2 fit in one slot)? Can they be used in any slot?
4. Is it required to have a circuit dedicated to the laundry room? What if I choose not to have a laundry room? (i.e. space saver combo in a closet)

Sorry for all the questions. Thanks in advance.:thumbsup:

darren 12-04-2007 04:20 PM

Have you thought of putting in a subpanel, run off of two breakers in your main panel.

LawnGuyLandSparky 12-04-2007 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigerbalm2424 (Post 78397)
100AMP service, 20 spaces. I would like to try to finish basement without upgrading to 200AMP or getting new 100AMP with more spaces. All spaces but one are currently occupied although some are not being utilized. Currently, my basement is unfinished and I need to finish it. Currently only one outlet and one light switch in basement(currently on circuit with upstairs outlets/lites).

- eight spaces for Range, Dryer, A/C, and hot tub.
- one 15 AMP for furnace
- one slot open
- three 15amp slots are packed with outlets/lights
- one 20 AMP for one GFCI outlet (upstairs bathroom)
- two 20 AMPs for kitchen (one circuit has 5 outlets inlcuding fridge, one circuit has only two outlets not being used)
- one 20 AMP labeled laundry (no circuit yet)
- one 15 AMP dishwasher
- one 15 AMP disposal (no disposal yet)
- one 20 AMP garage service

Questions:
1. could I put both bathroom GFCI's on one 20AMP circuit? (would only be two outlets in total)
2. Is an entire circuit required for only the disposal?
3. Where could I use the thin 15 breakers (2 fit in one slot)? Can they be used in any slot?
4. Is it required to have a circuit dedicated to the laundry room? What if I choose not to have a laundry room? (i.e. space saver combo in a closet)

Sorry for all the questions. Thanks in advance.:thumbsup:

I've never seen a 20 ckt 100a panel that didn't accomodate at least 4 "tandem" breakers, meaning, it's really a 24 ckt. panel. Between the spare slot, and the 2 available tandem spaces you still have physical room for another 5 circuits.

More than enough to finish a basement with some lighting and receptacles...

Andy in ATL 12-04-2007 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigerbalm2424 (Post 78397)

Questions:
1. could I put both bathroom GFCI's on one 20AMP circuit? (would only be two outlets in total)
2. Is an entire circuit required for only the disposal?
3. Where could I use the thin 15 breakers (2 fit in one slot)? Can they be used in any slot?
4. Is it required to have a circuit dedicated to the laundry room? What if I choose not to have a laundry room? (i.e. space saver combo in a closet)

Thanks in advance.:thumbsup:

Never be sorry for asking questions.

1. Yes.

2. Although some would disagree, putting the disposal and the dishwasher together is fine.

3. It all depends on the panel. Perhaps yours has a little wiring diagram in it? That will show where the tandems go. Don't force them.

4. It is in fact required to have a dedicated LR circuit. You will still have a dedicated 2-pole circuit for the space saver option.

Andy

tigerbalm2424 12-04-2007 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy in ATL (Post 78411)
Never be sorry for asking questions.

1. Yes.

2. Although some would disagree, putting the disposal and the dishwasher together is fine.

3. It all depends on the panel. Perhaps yours has a little wiring diagram in it? That will show where the tandems go. Don't force them.

4. It is in fact required to have a dedicated LR circuit. You will still have a dedicated 2-pole circuit for the space saver option.

Andy

Thanks for all the responses.
1. If I can really put both GFCI, one for the upstairs and one for the downstairs bathrooms on one 20 AMP circuit that would be great. This one bothered me the most.

2. So, I suppose I need to re-run one of the 15AMP circuits with 12-2 for a 20AMP circuit to supply the dishwasher and disposal.

If I can do both of these then I dont have to worry about the tandems!:thumbup:

Andy in ATL 12-04-2007 06:44 PM

It depends on the dishwasher and disposal. I will say that tract homes are wired all the time with DW and disposal on 15A circuit. I am not saying I would do this....I'm just saying.

Andy

arichard21 12-05-2007 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy in ATL (Post 78411)
Never be sorry for asking questions.

1. Yes.

2. Although some would disagree, putting the disposal and the dishwasher together is fine.

3. It all depends on the panel. Perhaps yours has a little wiring diagram in it? That will show where the tandems go. Don't force them.

4. It is in fact required to have a dedicated LR circuit. You will still have a dedicated 2-pole circuit for the space saver option.

Andy

quick threadjack - is it the whole LR thats required? or just the washer? (i was told just washer)

Piedmont 12-05-2007 08:18 AM

According to code you can put both bathroom recepts on the same GFCI AS LONG as it only powers outlets in bathrooms. If you you have any bathroom lighting or fan on the same circuit as the bathroom recepts, that makes it against code to link them.

It's against code to put a garbage disposal and dishwasher on the same circuit, they're supposed to each have a dedicated like you have now.

tigerbalm2424 12-05-2007 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piedmont (Post 78515)
According to code you can put both bathroom recepts on the same GFCI AS LONG as it only powers outlets in bathrooms. If you you have any bathroom lighting or fan on the same circuit as the bathroom recepts, that makes it against code to link them.

It's against code to put a garbage disposal and dishwasher on the same circuit, they're supposed to each have a dedicated like you have now.

Thanks! What about the Laundry Room Circuit? I currently have 220 run for the dryer. Do i need a whole additional circuit dedicated to the laundry room just to run the washer? Or can I just add the laundry room outlets on to another circuit, say, the living room outlets?

AllanJ 12-05-2007 09:07 AM

Not the living room also.

You need one 20 amp. 110 volt circuit that serves at least one or more 20 amp receptacle(s) or duplex* receptacle(s) in the laundry area and serves no other part of the house. There may be additional receptacles in the laundry area served by different circuits.

It is OK to splice the branch circuit wires in the panel using pigtails if you re-arranged breakers and the wires no longer reach.

*When a 20 amp. circuit serves 15 amp. receptacles, there must be at least two receptacles.

Andy in ATL 12-05-2007 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piedmont (Post 78515)

It's against code to put a garbage disposal and dishwasher on the same circuit, they're supposed to each have a dedicated like you have now.

Piedmont, I can think of one code it MIGHT violate under a certain set of circumstances. I'll give you my code reference if you give me yours.

Andy

ponch37300 12-05-2007 04:02 PM

wouldn't it just be easier to get tandom breakers and not worry about all this other stuff?

Piedmont 12-05-2007 04:18 PM

Yes it's murky Andy, but a couple I can come up with.

NEC 2002

Refer to 210.21(B)(2) and 210.23(A)(1) - (2)

Recepts under sink can not have a connected load over 12A for a 15A rated circuit. Dishwashers are between 10-12A, garbage disposals 7-8A, connecting the two and you break the "connected load" code.

NEC requires there to be NO accessible recepts under the kitchen countertop unless it is for a dedicated appliance. The NEC also prohibits tying into any dedicated appliance circuits. Since the garbage disposal must plug into a dedicated appliance circuit, and you're not allowed to tie into them, does that not mean you can't tie the dishwasher and disposal into the same circuit?

The rest, I just google for NEC Kitchen dedicated circuits and the like and come up with:

http://www.caa-online.com/library/ca...CREQCAM700.pdf

http://homerenovations.about.com/od/...iteleccode.htm

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Electrica...n-Circuits.htm (Dishwasher yes, disposal no)

http://www.codecheck.com/eleccode.htm#anchor1147828 (which says if on same circuit requires a tie-bar breaker probably to satisfy 210.21(B)(2) and 210.23(A)(1) - (2)
)

Anyway, not to say I'm right or have my city code vs. NEC codes mixed up but think I'm right. :wink:

Andy in ATL 12-05-2007 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piedmont (Post 78613)
Yes it's murky Andy, but a couple I can come up with.

NEC 2002

Refer to 210.21(B)(2) and 210.23(A)(1) - (2)

Recepts under sink can not have a connected load over 12A for a 15A rated circuit. Dishwashers are between 10-12A, garbage disposals 7-8A, connecting the two and you break the "connected load" code.

NEC requires there to be NO accessible recepts under the kitchen countertop unless it is for a dedicated appliance. The NEC also prohibits tying into any dedicated appliance circuits. Since the garbage disposal must plug into a dedicated appliance circuit, and you're not allowed to tie into them, does that not mean you can't tie the dishwasher and disposal into the same circuit?

The rest, I just google for NEC Kitchen dedicated circuits and the like and come up with:

http://www.caa-online.com/library/ca...CREQCAM700.pdf

http://homerenovations.about.com/od/...iteleccode.htm

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Electrica...n-Circuits.htm (Dishwasher yes, disposal no)

http://www.codecheck.com/eleccode.htm#anchor1147828 (which says if on same circuit requires a tie-bar breaker probably to satisfy 210.21(B)(2) and 210.23(A)(1) - (2)
)

Anyway, not to say I'm right or have my city code vs. NEC codes mixed up but think I'm right. :wink:

This is fun! In my part of the country we always hardwire the disposal as well as the dishwasher...So that takes care of 210.21(B)(2) and 210.23(A)(1). 210.23(A)(2) also doesn't apply because I have neither lighting units or cord and plug equipment on this circuit.

I'm curious about the other NEC references. This is all in fun and Proving me wrong is OK.

Andy

tigerbalm2424 12-05-2007 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LawnGuyLandSparky (Post 78402)
I've never seen a 20 ckt 100a panel that didn't accomodate at least 4 "tandem" breakers, meaning, it's really a 24 ckt. panel. Between the spare slot, and the 2 available tandem spaces you still have physical room for another 5 circuits.

More than enough to finish a basement with some lighting and receptacles...

Ok, so if I look into the tandem breaker choice, how do I determine where tandems can be used? Im not sure where the spare slot is or the two available tandem spaces. Can you explain this? Maybe a diagram if possible!:wink:

This is the model I have:

http://www.foxelectricsupply.com/Con...uct/tm2010.jpg 100 Amp 20 Circuit Panel With Main Single PhaseFox Electric Product Number: GEDTM2010CCU
Vendor Product Number Cross Reference General Electric / Ed&c TM2010CCU Product Specification :Main Breaker Loadcenters Top Feed - Surface/Flush Mount Indoor - Nema 1 ``Powermark Gold`` Style 6 Box - 14``W X 23``H X 3-3/4``D Amps=100
Single phase 3 wire 20 total 1-pole spaces 120/240 V. 20 spaces 1p 10 spaces 2p max 1`` THQL; 1/2`` THQP not applicable. 22000 AIR. TGK24 equipment ground kit sold separately. Suitable for use as service equipment when ins talled in accordance with the NEC. 4 1/0 AWG main lug wire range. U.L. - Galvanized steel enclosure.
Estimated Shipping Weight: 28 lbs.



Thanks!


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