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Old 05-14-2012, 05:49 PM   #1
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Hello Need help with electromagnetic induction project


Hello, and thanks in advanced for taking the time to read this post. By no means am I an electrician but am working on a science experiment I have thought up. I am trying to build a variable volt variable frequency 3 phase toroidal induction coil. So far the parts i will be using is;

Input 120v 60hrz
to
1.) WEG CFW100026SAZ VFD C10002 - CFW10 Variable Frequency Drive - 120v 1 phase input - 230v 3 phase 2.6 amp 1/2 hp output
q.)21/2-15 kHz adjustable switching frequency- confused what 21/2 KHz is can someone please explain this because i want a good frequency range to fully test my idea.
to
2. motor terminal block
Q.) I don't really know if i need this but believe i do since i will be building coil from scratch
3 toroidal coil
Q.) I need biggest design possible for the load I have on it. need help with windings and spacing also will need a good wire for this job any ideas?
4.) protection fuses to protect VFD if coil fails

If i am wrong what is the best possible way to do this project i need list of parts and how to wire and build a coil..
Thank You,
MillerLife
Sorry if my thread is lost first post ever

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Last edited by MillerLife; 05-14-2012 at 05:50 PM. Reason: forgot words
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Old 05-14-2012, 06:07 PM   #2
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Hello Need help with electromagnetic induction project


A "3-phase toroidal induction coil"? What do you mean? The term "induction coil" hasn't really been in use in electrical engineering for about 80 years - and back then it was poorly defined and could refer to several different things. From the looks of it, you are planning to use a VFD as a signal source and switching device. That's an interesting idea (and one that I've thought about quite a bit) but may not work the way you want it to. What, exactly, is the goal here?

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Old 05-14-2012, 06:15 PM   #3
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Hello Need help with electromagnetic induction project


i want to send power wireless but not to a reviver coil.. that secret i may let go a bit later... I don't mind if my idea fails i just know it wont leave my head till i try to build it.
() <- something like this.
i have picked a toroid coil because i need the magnetic flux to remain inside of the coil.

and 3 phase coil because i hear they are more efficient then single phase.
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Old 05-15-2012, 01:07 AM   #4
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Hello Need help with electromagnetic induction project


None of what you just said makes sense. I suggest you start from scratch with the engineering - after doing a MASSIVE amount of reading on basic electronics. Wireless power transmission via low frequency electromagnetic fields has been the subject of plenty of research for over a century. It has never proven commercially viable for anything more than charging portable devices. The limitations are the result of fundamental characteristics of electromagnetic fields, and cannot be overcome. Period. When wireless power transmission eventually becomes practical, it will be the result of a different approach to the problem other than the use of low frequency electromagnetic fields.

That said, it is entirely possible to do it on a small scale with low efficiency, as shown in that youtube video. In fact it's not only possible, it's a piece of cake. It was a simple laboratory demonstration in the late 1800's, and it's an afternoon project for a hobbyist today. The video explains the operation of their setup well enough to replicate it. There are many different approaches to actually building the apparatus, but they all rely on the same basic principles: you need a source of a high power electromagnetic field, and you need a resonant circuit placed in that field to receive the energy. The only way to achieve any appreciable efficiency is to use two resonant circuits - one for the transmitter and another for the receiver. The efficiency of the system is determined by the Q factor of the two circuits and the electromagnetic coupling (k value) between them.

In response to your comments:
- A toroidal coil traps the magnetic flux within the toroid. This would be useless for wireless power transmission, since you NEED the magnetic flux to intersect the receiver. Unless there's something you're not explaining adequately (and I can't imagine what it would be), a toroid is entirely counterproductive since you can only capture the flux with a receiver that's wound around the same toroidal core - so that's not really wireless at all.
- If your receiver doesn't include a coil (and a capacitor to resonate it with), it will not work. There are very few exceptions to this statement (such as using the EM field to directly excite a plasma) but I doubt any of them are applicable here. Also, it's highly presumptuous to claim that your receiver is some kind of new "secret". I would bet $1000 that Nikola Tesla or one of his contemporaries already tried it about a century ago if it's even a remotely practical idea. You're not the first person to dream about wireless power, and many of your predecessors were brilliant scientists with massive funding. They wrote a LOT on the subject, and even though the papers are technologically antiquated now they are still very educational.
- A "3-phase coil" is not a thing. You might have three coils on a 3-phase system, and they might even all be magnetically coupled. But it's still three coils. And they would not inherently be more efficient than any other arrangement of coils. Furthermore, as far as I can imagine, a multiphase approach to wireless power transfer would be inefficient, hard, and totally counterproductive. I also have never seen or heard of a 3-phase magnetically coupled arrangement of toroidal inductors, and I can't even conceive of a geometry that would work.
- A VFD isn't capable of doing what you want, unless you are going to run the system at 120Hz or less, which is impractical. The PWM switching frequency (2.5-15kHz) is not a useful metric for this application, since the VFD isn't capable of changing polarity that fast, only chopping the output. The power switching block you need is basically the same as that required for a solid state tesla coil. In fact, your entire device is a variant of a dual-resonant solid state tesla coil. There is a lot of information online about building those.
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Old 05-15-2012, 09:52 AM   #5
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Hello Need help with electromagnetic induction project


None of what I said makes since, how so? I just need help building a test setup and a way to control frequency and voltage to a " 3phase coil"... I thought a vfd would fit my need but you say no.. so what could I use as a replacement.. I would like a wide range of frequency and voltage.

I'm not trying to improve wireless energy transmissions or anything of the sort and yes i want everything to be contained in my toroid.. that is to only help focus my energy for my use.

I say 3 phase coil only to imply that i need 3 coils wound together and a way to connect them to the vfd. (or equipment you suggest) if it would be better a single coil would work, but would rather try 3 phase..

I understand without resonance a lot of my energy is lost but there is no second coil.. but it can be done..

So all im asking is a setup to help me test an idea...
I need strong magnetic field in the toroid and variable.. I only want to buy my equipment and not build your help would be great..
No need to be rude about this.. if this was done I wouldn't be doing it..
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Old 05-15-2012, 12:46 PM   #6
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Hello Need help with electromagnetic induction project


Without much more specific information it's not really possible to provide more advice.
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Old 05-15-2012, 01:39 PM   #7
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Hello Need help with electromagnetic induction project


I don't understand what information you need I told you the goal for this half of the project
What exactly I'm building is not needed information to build a variable coil setup..
The powet supply is 120v 60 hrz
So what do i need to build a coil and a way to control frequency and voltage ( most range to play with)
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Old 05-15-2012, 04:40 PM   #8
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Hello Need help with electromagnetic induction project


I suspect your trying to do something like the wireless chargers you can get for the Wii remotes....

Basically, you have an induction coil and when you put another coil close to it, the magnetic induction from one to the other induces a voltage and curent on the other coil. In the case of the Wii remotes and charging station..the station is a coil..the remote base also has a load coil...when you drop it in the cradle...it charges the battery....not supper effecient...but works fine on a small scale.

In your case, the VFD you have selected is designed for a motor...as in low impeadance/high inductance load. If you feed that signal into an open coil, the load is much less...in other words, low inductance, low resistance....

Without some magnetic load....you would need a huge # of turns to get the resistance up high enough so as to not over current.

You need to crack out the books and start brushing up on Maxwell equations. If you don't know what I'm talking about, then your WAY in over your head.

I can't help but wonder if your not trying to re-create that motor that makes more energy than what goes into it....
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Old 05-15-2012, 07:37 PM   #9
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Hello Need help with electromagnetic induction project


Quote:
Originally Posted by MillerLife View Post
I don't understand what information you need I told you the goal for this half of the project
What exactly I'm building is not needed information to build a variable coil setup..
The powet supply is 120v 60 hrz
So what do i need to build a coil and a way to control frequency and voltage ( most range to play with)
You need a LOT more knowledge of electronics. I'm done.
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Old 05-15-2012, 07:46 PM   #10
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Hello Need help with electromagnetic induction project


HA you were no help first place goes to you ...... you need an open mind and stop trying to debate everything.. this was not one.... glad you gone MR FAIL


LETS ACT LIKE YOU.
you: YOU CANT DO THAT..
ME: is there a way to do it
you: no
me: so ya
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Last edited by MillerLife; 05-15-2012 at 07:49 PM.
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