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Old 12-27-2008, 12:19 AM   #1
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Hello a couple of questions


I just bought a house in Springfield, Ohio. It has a 30 amp service with 2 screw-in fuses. I know it needs upgraded. What I am trying to find out is, will Ohio Edison pay for any of the outside(from meter to pole) upgrade? Right now there is a 10 guage wire running from the pole down. Seems like they should run a new wire. Also I had an electrician tell me when I rewire that I did not need to staple the new wires inside the wall. Just use a fish tape and pull the new ones in. Seems like a red-neck fix to me. Thanks for your time. Matt

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Old 12-27-2008, 12:24 AM   #2
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Hello a couple of questions


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Originally Posted by golive1973 View Post
I just bought a house in Springfield, Ohio. It has a 30 amp service with 2 screw-in fuses. I know it needs upgraded. What I am trying to find out is, will Ohio Edison pay for any of the outside(from meter to pole) upgrade? Right now there is a 10 guage wire running from the pole down. Seems like they should run a new wire. Also I had an electrician tell me when I rewire that I did not need to staple the new wires inside the wall. Just use a fish tape and pull the new ones in. Seems like a red-neck fix to me. Thanks for your time. Matt
How would you staple the wires inside a closed wall? You are not required to staples the wires (romex style) fished inside a closed wall, there is no practical way to do it without opening the walls.

Are you planing on doing this service upgrade yourself?

Jamie

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Old 12-27-2008, 12:31 AM   #3
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Hello a couple of questions


Quote:
Originally Posted by golive1973 View Post
I just bought a house in Springfield, Ohio. It has a 30 amp service with 2 screw-in fuses. I know it needs upgraded. What I am trying to find out is, will Ohio Edison pay for any of the outside(from meter to pole) upgrade? Right now there is a 10 guage wire running from the pole down. Seems like they should run a new wire. Also I had an electrician tell me when I rewire that I did not need to staple the new wires inside the wall. Just use a fish tape and pull the new ones in. Seems like a red-neck fix to me. Thanks for your time. Matt
Before you do anything, get your digital camera and snap some good pics for me would ya? I love that kind of stuff and it is getting rare to find.

I can't speak for Ohio Edison, but typically the utility will provide you with a meter socket and drop from the pole for free. They will not usually install anything but the wire from the pole. If you call them, they will be able to tell you exactly what they will supply and what they expect as far as mounting height and method of grounding the meter socket.

Don't forget the pics
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Old 12-27-2008, 12:48 AM   #4
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Hello a couple of questions


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Before you do anything, get your digital camera and snap some good pics for me would ya? I love that kind of stuff and it is getting rare to find.

Don't forget the pics
It's pretty amazing that a whole house was served by 30A service, more amazing it was still in service today. Would that have been 10 gage AL or did they spend the money on copper back then?

I'll have to keep an eye out, we take photos out in the country side, old barns and such, might get lucky and see some old meters still in service in the country side.

60A is the smallest I have ever seen in service, and is still fairly common around here.

Jamie
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Old 12-27-2008, 01:05 AM   #5
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Hello a couple of questions


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Originally Posted by jamiedolan View Post
It's pretty amazing that a whole house was served by 30A service, more amazing it was still in service today.
Well, when you only had one light per room, and if you were lucky one receptacle in the whole house, you didn't need much!

Quote:
Would that have been 10 gage AL or did they spend the money on copper back then?
Believe it or not, copper was easier to produce and thus cheaper back then. It wasn't until well into the 20th Century that aluminum became cheap enough to produce in large quantities.

Quote:
I'll have to keep an eye out, we take photos out in the country side, old barns and such, might get lucky and see some old meters still in service in the country side.

60A is the smallest I have ever seen in service, and is still fairly common around here.

Jamie
Great!

The only 30 A services I have seen were 120 V. And yes, the neutral was fused. But I have only seen these in areas that had electricity since the early 1900's. Outside of the cities in Georgia and Alabama, we didn't get electricity in houses until the Rural Electrification Act of the 1940's. So even the oldest services you see in those areas are 60 A, 240 V.

The 120 V services I saw were in Florida and Pennsylvania, but I don't get around there much. I used to have a pole transformer that stepped 7200 V down to 110, but that was accidentally cleaned out of my shop.

Last edited by InPhase277; 12-27-2008 at 01:09 AM.
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Old 12-27-2008, 01:06 AM   #6
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Hello a couple of questions


Thanks for the quick responses. I was thinking it was manditory to open the walls to staple. No I will be hiring someone to set the panel and all the work that ohio edison wont do. I can do the rewiring of the lights and outlets. Run the circuts, small stuff like that.
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Old 12-27-2008, 01:12 AM   #7
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Hello a couple of questions


The house was built in 1921. Picked it up for $35k. Figure about $15-20k in upgrades. Will be a nice little house.
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Old 12-27-2008, 01:20 AM   #8
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Hello a couple of questions


Quote:
Originally Posted by golive1973 View Post
Thanks for the quick responses. I was thinking it was manditory to open the walls to staple. No I will be hiring someone to set the panel and all the work that ohio edison wont do. I can do the rewiring of the lights and outlets. Run the circuts, small stuff like that.
First, thanks for the pics. Some folks collect stamps or Coke bottles, I collect old electrical junk! As far as fishing wires in the walls, the reason the Code requires wires to be stapled in new construction is because they can be damaged before the final finish. In old work, the wall is already finished, so there is little chance of damage. The red neck way would be to bash holes in the finished wall just to staple a wire.

As long as the boxes you use have some means to clamp the wire, you are legal
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Old 12-27-2008, 01:23 AM   #9
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Hello a couple of questions


Cool thanks alot guys.
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Old 12-27-2008, 02:09 AM   #10
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Hello a couple of questions


Well, when you only had one light per room, and if you were lucky one receptacle in the whole house, you didn't need much!

In my parents house there is a bank of 3 (pretty sure it's) push button switches, I am pretty sure it is original. 2 buttons, push one in the other pushes out, kind of neat. Works fine, used it yesterday. House was built around 1917. Kind of a neat old item you don't see much cause who keeps their old switches, and most of them are trash once there than old.

The only 30 A services I have seen were 120 V. And yes, the neutral was fused. But I have only seen these in areas that had electricity since the early 1900's. Outside of the cities in Georgia and Alabama, we didn't get electricity in houses until the Rural Electrification Act of the 1940's. So even the oldest services you see in those areas are 60 A, 240 V.

We had power here very early on, this was a very progressive area at the turn of the century, mainly do to paper mills on the river here (which with the economic changes, are being torn down now, sad to see some of the really old ones go). It would be intresting to see a 120v drop.

Sure is a different world now, both of my grandparents grew up in rural impoverished Indiana on farms, in the 20's and 30's with no electrical.

You might find this interesting: The first house powered by hydro-power is just 10 miles from here. I drive by it all the time:

http://www.focol.org/hearthstone/

The 120 V services I saw were in Florida and Pennsylvania, but I don't get around there much. I used to have a pole transformer that stepped 7200 V down to 110, but that was accidentally cleaned out of my shop.

Was that what they used prior to the modern transformers, the 110V, I never really understood why there is 110vs120, was just under the impression that 120/240 is the proper standard for the us. Is that what most of the pole transformers are that we see outside out houses, a 7200v step down, taped to provide 2 -120's? Or am I mistaken and the voltage is lower before it gets to that last step down transformer?


Golive: Thanks for posting the photos for everyone to see. Good Luck with your project, and feel free to come back and ask questions as your project progresses.

Jamie
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Old 12-27-2008, 03:20 AM   #11
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Hello a couple of questions


Quote:
Originally Posted by jamiedolan View Post

In my parents house there is a bank of 3 (pretty sure it's) push button switches, I am pretty sure it is original. 2 buttons, push one in the other pushes out, kind of neat.


You mean like the pic below?


Quote:
Was that what they used prior to the modern transformers, the 110V, I never really understood why there is 110vs120, was just under the impression that 120/240 is the proper standard for the us. Is that what most of the pole transformers are that we see outside out houses, a 7200v step down, taped to provide 2 -120's? Or am I mistaken and the voltage is lower before it gets to that last step down transformer?
Edison first produced power at 110/220 V DC. At first, light bulb filaments couldn't be made that could withstand a voltage much higher than 110 V. Eventually, AC became the current of choice, but there were alot of bulbs out there that worked on 110, so 110 was here to stay. Over time, as more load was added, instead of adding or upgrading lines, the voltage was bumped up a little to compensate for voltage drop. It went from 110, to 115, to 120 V. Factories and commercial buildings had 440, 220, and 110.

As we added loads to our homes, we added another wire to the service to make it 110/220. Now it's 120/240 V. Some cities even had, at the same time, single phase, 2-phase, 3-phase, and DC services! Some even had 25 Hz services!
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Old 12-27-2008, 04:24 AM   #12
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Hello a couple of questions


James.,

Belive or not in Appleton metro area the numbers of house still on 120 v 30 amp service is 12 still on that service

Green Bay area IIRC about 10 maybe 12 still on that setup

Do you recall the old papermill near the Universty dorm on lower level that converted to the apartment complex ? { near Oneida Stree bridge area }

That building was oringally wired in 125/250 volt DC later change to 25 HZ that time { in early 30's } about late 50's not confirmed but pretty sure they got rid of old 25 HZ supply and ran all 60 HZ they ran everything from 120 to high as 4160 volts inside.

That building the 4160 v system is no longer in used and removed for safety reason.

Oh yeah while speaking of oddball service most of Mensha older resdentail area was wired on 3 ph 4 wire delta but that pretty much gone now

Merci,Marc
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Old 12-27-2008, 04:32 AM   #13
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Hello a couple of questions


sir adam beck in niagara falls still has 3 operational gennies that produce 25 hz as well as the Rankin gen station has 11 gennies that can produce 25hz, its presently closed http://www.iaw.com/~falls/power.html

I remember my grandmothers old house had a bunch of those push button switches, even some of the old fixtures were origional, they bought it in the 50's and it was sold in '87, don't know whats been changed since, but being old fashion cheap europeans they did not do a dam thing in upgrades unless there was a problem that could not be bandaded
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Old 12-27-2008, 05:38 AM   #14
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Hello a couple of questions


[quote=ACB Electric;202924]sir adam beck in niagara falls still has 3 operational gennies that produce 25 hz as well as the Rankin gen station has 11 gennies that can produce 25hz, its presently closed http://www.iaw.com/~falls/power.html

Are there still customers in that area that use 25 Hz? And if so, why? I guess a 25 Hz motor must last a looong time...
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Old 12-27-2008, 08:00 AM   #15
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Hello a couple of questions


[quote=InPhase277;202931]
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Originally Posted by ACB Electric View Post
sir adam beck in niagara falls still has 3 operational gennies that produce 25 hz as well as the Rankin gen station has 11 gennies that can produce 25hz, its presently closed http://www.iaw.com/~falls/power.html

Are there still customers in that area that use 25 Hz? And if so, why? I guess a 25 Hz motor must last a looong time...

From what I have been told a local century+ old papermill still buys the 25hz, because of all the motors, and the large size of them as well as the demand for power they alone had at the time when the change over happened the cost to swap out all the motors and controls was going to be higher than running a dedicated line and making a deal to keep the 25hz flowing

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