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Old 12-17-2012, 09:44 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
Article 250.130 was not changed. It still allows a EGC to be run to ground to older wiring.

sorry i dont know what an EGC is.. can you break it down in simple terms?

and does this mean a separate ground wire is ok to run?

the only thing being plugged into this outlet is a light.

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Old 12-17-2012, 09:47 PM   #17
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250.130 Equipment Grounding Conductor Connections.
Equipment grounding conductor connections at the source
of separately derived systems shall be made in accordance
with 250.30(A)(1). Equipment grounding conductor con-
nections at service equipment shall be made as indicated in
250.130(A) or (B). For replacement of non–grounding-type
receptacles with grounding-type receptacles and for branch-
circuit extensions only in existing installations that do not
have an equipment grounding conductor in the branch circuit,
connections shall be permitted as indicated in 250.130(C).

(A) For Grounded Systems. The connection shall be
made by bonding the equipment grounding conductor to
the grounded service conductor and the grounding elec-
trode conductor.
(B) For Ungrounded Systems. The connection shall be
made by bonding the equipment grounding conductor to the
grounding electrode conductor.
(C) Nongrounding Receptacle Replacement or Branch
Circuit Extensions. The equipment grounding conductor
of a grounding-type receptacle or a branch-circuit extension
shall be permitted to be connected to any of the following:

(1) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode sys-
tem as described in 250.50
(2) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode con-
ductor

This is where the building is grounded at the main panel

(3) The equipment grounding terminal bar within the en-
closure where the branch circuit for the receptacle or
branch circuit originates
(4) For grounded systems, the grounded service conductor
within the service equipment enclosure
(5) For ungrounded systems, the grounding terminal bar
within the service equipment enclosure
Informational Note: See 406.4(D) for the use of a ground-
fault circuit-interrupting type of receptacle.



(2) Non–Grounding-Type Receptacles. Where attachment
to an equipment grounding conductor does not exist in the
receptacle enclosure, the installation shall comply with
(D)(2)(a), (D)(2)(b), or (D)(2)(c).
(a) A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be per-
mitted to be replaced with another non–grounding-type re-
ceptacle(s).
(b) A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be per-
mitted to be replaced with a ground-fault circuit interrupter-
type of receptacle(s). These receptacles shall be marked
“No Equipment Ground.”
An equipment grounding con-
ductor shall not be connected from the ground-fault circuit-
interrupter-type receptacle to any outlet supplied from the
ground-fault circuit-interrupter receptacle.
(c) A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be per-
mitted to be replaced with a grounding-type receptacle(s)
where supplied through a ground-fault circuit interrupter.
Grounding-type receptacles supplied through the ground-
fault circuit interrupter shall be marked “GFCI Protected”
and “No Equipment Ground.” An equipment grounding
conductor shall not be connected between the grounding-
type receptacles.

in simple terms this means?
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Old 12-17-2012, 10:25 PM   #18
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Someone will correct me if I am wrong.

The ECG, equipment grounding conductor, is the big ground wire that grounds the whole system. It's the wire connected to the 8 foot ground rods driven into the dirt and your main water pipe where it enters your house. It connects to your meter box or main breaker panel. It's the main protection against lightning and things like tree branches hitting power lines.

(I think I have this right)

This is what you have to connect to, the easiest point is in the main breaker panel.

Yes the code is complicated and quite a maze to figure out, but electricians have to know it to get licensed.
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Old 12-18-2012, 02:48 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TTW View Post
They are designed to trip at 5/1000 of an amp, that's 0.005 amps. A 100 watt light bulb only draws draws about 8/10 or 0.08 amps (or about 16 times more power) just to give you an idea.

Whew, I'm getting another coffee!
A little bit of a math fix.

Power = Voltage * Current --> Current = Power / Voltage

For a 100W bulb in a 120V circuit:

Current = 100 / 120 = 0.833 Amps (not 0.08 Amps), which is 160 times more current than it takes to trip a GFCI.
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Old 12-18-2012, 07:32 AM   #20
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An equipment grounding conductor (EGC) is the ground wire that goes with the hot wires for example in a branch circuit, in an appliance cord, or between a main panel and subpanel. A grounding electrode conductor (GEC) runs from the panel to ground rods, water pipe, concrete rebar, or between such grounding electrodes. A bonding jumper interconnects metal objects (such as sections of metal plumbing with a plastic pipe separating them electrically) sometimes in the same manner as a GEC but does not specifically connect to a grounding electrode.

The grounding electrode system consists of all qualifying grounding electrodes (including the main water pipe, if metal) entering the building), the GECs, and the panel ground bus (neutral bus if in the panel with first main disconnect). An outbuilding that needs enough electricity so as to have a subpanel must have its own GES tied into the panel with the first master disconnect.
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:54 AM   #21
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thanks

so running a separate wire to the cold water pipe is also acceptable

Last edited by echobravo; 12-18-2012 at 10:02 AM.
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Old 12-18-2012, 10:11 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by echobravo View Post
thanks

so running a separate wire to the cold water pipe is also acceptable
I believe that it would have to be within 5 feet of where the water pipe enters your home.

I have heard that this was once acceptable (hooking to a convenient water pipe), but because of the plastic pex piping, and sharkbite type fittings (they don't provide continuity) now being used, the code was changed.

If you grounded something to a handy pipe, and then someone did a repair down the road with one of these, you have now lost that ground path. So if that circuit developed a ground, and someone touched that now 'electrically isolated' piping somewhere, they would get shocked. Think about hooking up the garden hose outside while standing in a puddle...
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Old 12-18-2012, 10:39 AM   #23
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A grounding electrode conductor from the panel is attached to the entering (metal) water pipe within 5 feet of where it enters and before the water meter if the latter is in the basement. If the entering water pipe is plastic then the (same) wire is still needed to where metal pipe begins, is called a bonding jumper, and is preferably attached after the water meter. With the wire clamped on before the meter, a bonding jumper should be installed between the inlet and outlet of the meter. Equipment grounding conductors retrofitted to otherwise ungrounded branch circuits may not be clamped to "the nearest water pipe" but may be clamped onto GECs.
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:04 AM   #24
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ok so thats not acceptable... i either put in a gfci or run the ground back to the panel

got it

thanks for the lesson.

one more quick question, for sake of argument.

regardless of code, say if i were to run a separate ground wire and pigtailed it off another ground wire close to where i intended to use it, would it work?

Last edited by echobravo; 12-18-2012 at 11:07 AM.
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Old 12-18-2012, 12:29 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by echobravo View Post
... one more quick question, for sake of argument.

regardless of code, say if i were to run a separate ground wire and pigtailed it off another ground wire close to where i intended to use it, would it work?
Yes it would work.

I am cautiously saying that, if you are retrofitting a ground wire, run separately, from a receptacle back to the panel, it can serve, via daisy chain or pigtails or taps, other receptacles and things on the same branch circuit. For different branch circuits, each circuit needs its own even though the two EGCs may be next to each other for much of the route to the panel.
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Old 12-18-2012, 12:45 PM   #26
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What are you planning on using it for, just a light or a TV or computer?

If it's something you will use with a surge protector especially, you really run a proper ground. A surge protector needs it to dump a surge. If it's just for lighting or a space heater, gust get a GFCI.

The problem with just finding a nearby ground wire is that you have no assurance that it is connected properly.

Your orig post said you were getting power from an existing 2 wire no ground ceiling light.

My home for instance is over 100 years old and was originally knob and tube. The best I can tell, it was replaced with the old 2 wire no ground old fabric covered romex, but there may well still be some K & T hidden away. It is a mix of probably 60+ years of different wiring including new 2 wire with ground romex tied into ungrounded circuits to add things here and there.

I am fixing it as I renovate, room by room.



My furnace is tied into this





The plumbing is in great shape!





Who knows what I'll find in the walls, and the unaccessible attic and between the floors.

So you see, I just can't in good conscionse advise yo just find a handt ground wire that goes who knows where.
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Old 12-18-2012, 02:00 PM   #27
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What are you planning on using it for, just a light or a TV or computer?

If it's something you will use with a surge protector especially, you really run a proper ground. A surge protector needs it to dump a surge. If it's just for lighting or a space heater, gust get a GFCI.

The problem with just finding a nearby ground wire is that you have no assurance that it is connected properly.

Your orig post said you were getting power from an existing 2 wire no ground ceiling light.

...
your first picture is like what i have. 2 wire, fabric insulation.
(ill take pictures and post it tonite.

it was wiring for a ceiling light. im re-routing the wires to an outlet for a lamp that the wall switch will control. no electronics are being used in this outlet.
i put a junction box in the ceiling at that spot and ran 12-2 romex to the outlet and i have a ground just hanging there.
i would REALLY like to just remove the old wire from the panel and run new to it but im not an electrican so i dont mess with the panel and to get one to run new wire is alot of money. so im trying to use whats there without causing problems for me in the process.


@Allan, thanks again for the education.
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Old 12-18-2012, 06:28 PM   #28
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I learned something, thanks for the post.
Still not sure where a sperate ground can be run thou.

http://ecmweb.com/content/how-gfcis-work
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Old 12-18-2012, 06:58 PM   #29
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Is this on an outside wall?

I have never heard anything against running one outside.

There should be an exposed ground wire at your meter box.
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:07 PM   #30
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Is this on an outside wall?

I have never heard anything against running one outside.

There should be an exposed ground wire at your meter box.
here is a pic of my ceiling box


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