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Old 04-25-2012, 07:48 AM   #16
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ground wire needed


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Originally Posted by theatretch85 View Post
Found the image I was looking for...

Check out the discussion here: Cable & separate ground wire in conduit?

The link is talking about conduit, but there's another graphic that has an excerpt from a code book referencing this situation, which may be helpful.
Now, we continue on to the rest of 300.3(B)

(2) Grounding and Bonding Conductors. Equipment
grounding conductors shall be permitted to be installed
outside a raceway or cable assembly where in accordance
with the provisions of 250.130(C) for certain existing
installations or in accordance with 250.134(B),
Exception No. 2, for dc circuits. Equipment bonding
conductors shall be permitted to be installed on the outside
of raceways in accordance with 250.102(E).



Last edited by Code05; 04-25-2012 at 07:52 AM.
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Old 04-25-2012, 07:48 AM   #17
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Old 04-25-2012, 07:56 AM   #18
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ground wire needed


I'm going to ask the stupid question here. Why in the world would you fish in a ground wire and run it back to the panel vs doing it the "correct" way and installing a new feed containing the ground?

That being said, I can see an inspector failing a single 14/12 AWG run for this purpose if it is drilled thru the exposed joists.
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Old 04-25-2012, 08:08 AM   #19
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ground wire needed


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Originally Posted by k_buz View Post
I'm going to ask the stupid question here. Why in the world would you fish in a ground wire and run it back to the panel vs doing it the "correct" way and installing a new feed containing the ground?

That being said, I can see an inspector failing a single 14/12 AWG run for this purpose if it is drilled thru the exposed joists.
He is doing it because he has a lot of single strand left over.

I would run a new cable also, but what he wants to do is legal.

I would fight the Inspector royally if he tried to fail this. What makes you think that running it through exposed joists is a problem?
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Old 04-25-2012, 08:08 AM   #20
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ground wire needed


Quote:
Originally Posted by k_buz
I'm going to ask the stupid question here. Why in the world would you fish in a ground wire and run it back to the panel vs doing it the "correct" way and installing a new feed containing the ground?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sirsparksalot

I don't want to run a new cable, as I have plenty more #14/#12 bares than I do full cable.

Thanks
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Old 04-25-2012, 08:48 AM   #21
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ground wire needed


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I would fight the Inspector royally if he tried to fail this. What makes you think that running it through exposed joists is a problem?
And I think you would have a legitimate argument, but I could see an inspector using the physical damage to validate his reasoning.

The key in the code rule is the "and"...

...unless installed withing hollow spaces of he framing members of buildings or structures AND where not subject to physical damage.

Is there a definition of what "subject to physical damage" specifially means? That is an interpretation and is subject to some argument. Romex is allowed thru basement joists specifically (334.15 (C)), so you can't argue that romex wouldn't be allowed thru joists if the spaces between joists are subject to physical damage.

Can you point out another example of running a single 14/12 thru joist would be permitted? I am trying to think of such an example to compare, but I can't. So this is an unique application.

I will say that I think the AHJ would be pushing it if he failed such an installation, but I could see the argument.
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Old 04-25-2012, 09:32 AM   #22
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ground wire needed


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Originally Posted by k_buz View Post
And I think you would have a legitimate argument, but I could see an inspector using the physical damage to validate his reasoning.

The key in the code rule is the "and"...

...unless installed withing hollow spaces of he framing members of buildings or structures AND where not subject to physical damage.

Is there a definition of what "subject to physical damage" specifially means? That is an interpretation and is subject to some argument. Romex is allowed thru basement joists specifically (334.15 (C)), so you can't argue that romex wouldn't be allowed thru joists if the spaces between joists are subject to physical damage.

Can you point out another example of running a single 14/12 thru joist would be permitted? I am trying to think of such an example to compare, but I can't. So this is an unique application.

I will say that I think the AHJ would be pushing it if he failed such an installation, but I could see the argument.
I get your point "subject to physical damage" has always been vague.

Running a single conductor through joists does not have to be permitted specifically, it would have be not permitted by code and it is not stated.

300.4 does not say it is not permitted, therefore: it is.
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Old 04-25-2012, 09:59 AM   #23
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ground wire needed


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Originally Posted by k_buz View Post
I'm going to ask the stupid question here. Why in the world would you fish in a ground wire and run it back to the panel vs doing it the "correct" way and installing a new feed containing the ground?

That being said, I can see an inspector failing a single 14/12 AWG run for this purpose if it is drilled thru the exposed joists.
Because you don't have to go back to the panel. It is sometimes easier and less expensive to fish the wire to the receptacle and run to a point on the GEC system.

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