Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > Electrical

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 04-24-2012, 12:26 AM   #1
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Central Indiana (USA)
Posts: 1,316
Share |
Default

ground wire needed


Is it permissible to run a single bare wire from an ungrounded receptacle to the panel if the bare wire is not part of the Romex cable?

May a bare wire be ran to a j-box that has a ground while being outside the Romex jacket?

I don't want to run a new cable, as I have plenty more #14/#12 bares than I do full cable.

Thanks

sirsparksalot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2012, 12:33 AM   #2
Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Apple Valley, MN, USA
Posts: 999
Send a message via AIM to theatretch85
Default

ground wire needed


Short answer: No it is not permissible.

theatretch85 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2012, 12:47 AM   #3
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Central Indiana (USA)
Posts: 1,316
Default

ground wire needed


Well, I'm looking at 250.130(C), and Exhibit 250.49.

"The equipment grounding conductor of a grounding-type receptacle or a branch circuit extension shall be permitted to be connected to any of the following:
(5) For ungrounded systems, the grounding terminal bar within the service equipment enclosure."
sirsparksalot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2012, 06:05 AM   #4
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Nashua, NH, USA
Posts: 6,932
Default

ground wire needed


Short answer. Yes it is permissible.

This ground wire (equipment grounding conductor) can follow the circuit conductors back to the panel exactly, approximately, or vaguely. Should it first reach the fat ground wire (grounding electrode conductor) from the panel to a ground rod or entering main cold water pipe, it can end and be clamped on there.

If a new cable with ground can be strung without tearing open the wall in a few additional places then the new cable is preferable.
__________________
Stop wasting time re-adjusting the pattern. Have several lawn sprinklers, one for each pattern.

Last edited by AllanJ; 04-24-2012 at 06:12 AM.
AllanJ is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to AllanJ For This Useful Post:
Code05 (04-24-2012)
Old 04-24-2012, 06:30 AM   #5
Licensed Electrician
 
k_buz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: SE Wisconsin
Posts: 4,340
Default

ground wire needed


250.130 isn't telling you you can run a single conductor separate, it is just telling you where to terminate the EGC.

Take a look at 250.120 (2011 NEC). If you routed a GEC separate, it would either need to be protected from physical damage or (minimum) #6.
k_buz is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to k_buz For This Useful Post:
plummen (04-25-2012)
Old 04-24-2012, 08:11 AM   #6
Licensed electrician
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Maryland
Posts: 7,523
Default

ground wire needed


Grounding a receptacle would be an EGC, not a GEC. GEC go to electrodes like rods.
__________________
Answers based on the National Electrical Code. Local amendments may apply. Check with your local building officials.
Jim Port is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2012, 09:13 AM   #7
Member
 
Code05's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Easton MD
Posts: 1,841
Default

ground wire needed


Quote:
Originally Posted by theatretch85 View Post
Short answer: No it is not permissible.
Incorrect, unless you are referring to this only this bold part of OP.


Quote:
May a bare wire be ran to a j-box that has a ground while being outside the Romex jacket?

Last edited by Code05; 04-24-2012 at 09:38 AM.
Code05 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2012, 09:19 AM   #8
Member
 
Code05's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Easton MD
Posts: 1,841
Default

ground wire needed


Quote:
Originally Posted by k_buz View Post
250.130 isn't telling you you can run a single conductor separate, it is just telling you where to terminate the EGC.

Take a look at 250.120 (2011 NEC). If you routed a GEC separate, it would either need to be protected from physical damage or (minimum) #6.
Reread 250.120

(C) Equipment Grounding Conductors Smaller Than 6
AWG. Where not routed with circuit conductors as permitted
in 250.130(C) and 250.134(B) Exception No. 2, equipment
grounding conductors smaller than 6 AWG shall be
protected from physical damage by an identified raceway or
cable armor unless installed within hollow spaces of the
framing members of buildings or structures and where not
subject to physical damage
.
Code05 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2012, 09:41 AM   #9
Member
 
Code05's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Easton MD
Posts: 1,841
Default

ground wire needed


Quote:
Originally Posted by sirsparksalot View Post
Well, I'm looking at 250.130(C), and Exhibit 250.49.

"The equipment grounding conductor of a grounding-type receptacle or a branch circuit extension shall be permitted to be connected to any of the following:
(5) For ungrounded systems, the grounding terminal bar within the service equipment enclosure."
You do not have an ungrounded system (service).


Right section, but you are 1-4 and not 5.
Code05 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2012, 09:46 AM   #10
Member
 
Code05's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Easton MD
Posts: 1,841
Default

ground wire needed


Quote:
Originally Posted by sirsparksalot View Post
Is it permissible to run a single bare wire from an ungrounded receptacle to the panel if the bare wire is not part of the Romex cable?

May a bare wire be ran to a j-box that has a ground while being outside the Romex jacket?

I don't want to run a new cable, as I have plenty more #14/#12 bares than I do full cable.

Thanks
You can run a single ground back to any of the places mentioned in 250.130(C)(1-4), but not to just any j-box with a ground.

(C) Nongrounding Receptacle Replacement or Branch
Circuit Extensions. The equipment grounding conductor
of a grounding-type receptacle or a branch-circuit extension
shall be permitted to be connected to any of the following:

(1) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode system
as described in 250.50

(2) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode conductor

(3) The equipment grounding terminal bar within the enclosure
where the branch circuit for the receptacle or
branch circuit originates

(4) For grounded systems, the grounded service conductor
within the service equipment enclosure
Code05 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2012, 03:12 PM   #11
Licensed Electrician
 
k_buz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: SE Wisconsin
Posts: 4,340
Default

ground wire needed


Quote:
Originally Posted by Code05 View Post
Reread 250.120

(C) Equipment Grounding Conductors Smaller Than 6
AWG. Where not routed with circuit conductors as permitted
in 250.130(C) and 250.134(B) Exception No. 2, equipment
grounding conductors smaller than 6 AWG shall be
protected from physical damage by an identified raceway or
cable armor unless installed within hollow spaces of the
framing members of buildings or structures and where not
subject to physical damage
.
Correct, that is why I said read the code section.
k_buz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2012, 06:50 PM   #12
Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Apple Valley, MN, USA
Posts: 999
Send a message via AIM to theatretch85
Default

ground wire needed


It was my understanding that all circuit conductors for the circuit must be in the same raceway or cable set. Can't tie a ground wire to the outside of the cable or raceway. That is why I indicated it is not permissible, I remember seeing a nice little graphic that goes with this definition, but can't pull it up on my phone. It shows the violation being a ground wire tied to the outside of a raceway.
theatretch85 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2012, 11:39 PM   #13
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Central Indiana (USA)
Posts: 1,316
Default

ground wire needed


Quote:
Originally Posted by theatretch85 View Post
It was my understanding that all circuit conductors for the circuit must be in the same raceway or cable set. Can't tie a ground wire to the outside of the cable or raceway. That is why I indicated it is not permissible, I remember seeing a nice little graphic that goes with this definition, but can't pull it up on my phone. It shows the violation being a ground wire tied to the outside of a raceway.
Well, I wouldn't necessarily tie it to an existing raceway. My idea was to run a piece of #14 bare from a 15a circuit to the panel.

Quote:
(3) The equipment grounding terminal bar within the enclosure
where the branch circuit for the receptacle or
branch circuit originates
This appears to mean "the panel".

kbuz amkes an interesting point with:

Quote:
Originally Posted by k_buz
250.130 isn't telling you you can run a single conductor separate, it is just telling you where to terminate the EGC.
However, though the section doesn't specifically state that the section is referring to a "single (separate) wire", it does seem to imply it with the title of the section being "Nongrounding Receptacle Replacement"


Quote:
Reread 250.120
(C) Equipment Grounding Conductors Smaller Than 6
AWG. Where not routed with circuit conductors as permitted
in 250.130(C) and 250.134(B) Exception No. 2, equipment
grounding conductors smaller than 6 AWG shall be
protected from physical damage by an identified raceway or
cable armor unless installed within hollow spaces of the
framing members of buildings or structures and where not
subject to physical damage
.
The separate wire would be ran behind sheetrock, through the ceiling joists (space -16" on center, to be exact). Would not these spaces be considered hollow, or are they referring to brick and mortar? As long as it is ran along, and stapled the requisite distances, it would seem to me to be protected from physical damage.

Thanks for the good examples.

Last edited by sirsparksalot; 04-24-2012 at 11:41 PM.
sirsparksalot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2012, 11:41 PM   #14
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Central Indiana (USA)
Posts: 1,316
Default

ground wire needed


theatretch85 , I've heard the same thing (about being in the same raceway or cable set), but I'd forgotten the final decree, hence the question.
sirsparksalot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2012, 12:19 AM   #15
Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Apple Valley, MN, USA
Posts: 999
Send a message via AIM to theatretch85
Default

ground wire needed


Found the image I was looking for...

Check out the discussion here: Cable & separate ground wire in conduit?

The link is talking about conduit, but there's another graphic that has an excerpt from a code book referencing this situation, which may be helpful.
Attached Thumbnails
ground wire needed-user3_pic34_1209685079.jpg  

theatretch85 is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Ground rod and ground wire question mulltron Electrical 17 07-29-2011 05:10 PM
Running new(up to code) ground wire & protection. MikeSF Electrical 25 07-04-2010 04:33 PM
This doesnt seem right. JoulesWinfield Electrical 27 07-26-2009 07:40 PM
water meter ground wire jumper not needed? windowguy Electrical 13 07-21-2009 05:37 PM
Ground rod or not? brotherman Electrical 30 07-15-2008 04:58 PM




Top of Page | View New Posts

Copyright © 2003-2014 Escalate Media. All Rights Reserved.