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Old 02-02-2009, 08:56 AM   #16
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So the factory ground/neutral bar(s) are insulated from the box?
Yes, and if service equipment there will be a main bonding jumper to the metal of the panel. Square d and others use a green bonding screw.

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A word of caution here: When adding a bonding conductor between ground/neutral buses, you need to be extremely careful not to get the large conductor near the live SE conductors. Even with the main breaker shut off, there are still exposed live parts at the lugs.
It's too easy to be pulling wires in that area and have one get across the live parts, causing either electrocution, or an arc-flash.
Why are you adding bonding jumpers between neutral bars ? If this is service equipment the panel will have a main bonding jumper.

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Old 02-02-2009, 09:24 AM   #17
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I was wondering the same thing. So, if you needed an additional ground/neutral bus how would you go about doing that? Is there a special kit that has to be orderd for your particular panel?
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Old 02-02-2009, 09:28 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Stubbie View Post
Yes, and if service equipment there will be a main bonding jumper to the metal of the panel. Square d and others use a green bonding screw.

Why are you adding bonding jumpers between neutral bars ? If this is service equipment the panel will have a main bonding jumper.
I'm not doing anything with my panel. The OP wanted to install a grounding bar, and it was suggested that he instead install a grounding/neutral bar.

I believe that most panels have kits to add a second ground/neutral bar.

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Old 02-02-2009, 09:30 AM   #19
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I was wondering the same thing. So, if you needed an additional ground/neutral bus how would you go about doing that? Is there a special kit that has to be orderd for your particular panel?
There should be a label on the panel with the part numbers of the ground bar kits.
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Old 02-02-2009, 09:37 AM   #20
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Are you talking about ground bar kits? I'm talking about the ground/neutral bus.
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Old 02-02-2009, 09:44 AM   #21
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Are you talking about ground bar kits? I'm talking about the ground/neutral bus.
I'm talking about the ground bar kits. Why would you need to add another neutral bus?
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Old 02-02-2009, 10:10 AM   #22
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I'm talking about the ground bar kits. Why would you need to add another neutral bus?
Personally I don't need another ground/neutral bar. I am just curious because I've heard of other guys asking about an additional ground/neutral bar. I have never seen one yet so I was wondering if there was such a thing.

My panel has grounds and neutrals doubled up on the bus. A violation I believe. The sticker in the panel says one neutral per terminal and up to two EGC per terminal. This panel was installed by an electrician in 1999 when the house was built. So in my case if I needed/wanted more room I should install another ground bar and move some of the EGC to that bar to free up more space on the ground/neutral bus for the neutral conductors. Correct?
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Old 02-02-2009, 10:23 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Steelhead View Post
Personally I don't need another ground/neutral bar. I am just curious because I've heard of other guys asking about an additional ground/neutral bar. I have never seen one yet so I was wondering if there was such a thing.

My panel has grounds and neutrals doubled up on the bus. A violation I believe. The sticker in the panel says one neutral per terminal and up to two EGC per terminal. This panel was installed by an electrician in 1999 when the house was built. So in my case if I needed/wanted more room I should install another ground bar and move some of the EGC to that bar to free up more space on the ground/neutral bus for the neutral conductors. Correct?
Correct.
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Old 02-02-2009, 10:25 AM   #24
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Thanks!
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Old 02-02-2009, 11:03 AM   #25
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Ok, now I'm confused
This isn't my panel - just as an example
The bar on the far left is a grounding bar ONLY - since it isn't connected to the Neutral/Ground "bar" on the panel ? Yes, No?

Now on either side of the panel is another bar
On my panel these are tied together & secured to the case by a green ground screw (SE - service entrance)
Are you calling these the "bus" ?

Now the reason you can't use the bar on the left for neutrals is because it doesn't have the stand-off insulators? But if it did have stand-offs you could then attach a wire to connect it to the neutral/ground "bus"
If so, what size wire would be needed?

And the reason not to use the bar on the left is that you do not want current flowing thru the case, which is what would happen if you landed neutrals there

I think this started to make more sense as I typed it out
Unless I'm still off?
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Old 02-02-2009, 11:08 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Steelhead View Post
Are you talking about ground bar kits? I'm talking about the ground/neutral bus.

You do not add neutral bus bars they are factory installed and if in service equipment you may land both neutrals and grounds on them. If you add any bus bars and mount them directly on the panel metal either making your own holes or using the factory supplied mounting holes you are adding a ground bar. No neutrals can land on these. Most panels will have predrilled swaged holes in the panel back that accept ground bus bars. You need the correct ground bar as Jerry said so that the mounting holes line up with the new ground bar.
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Old 02-02-2009, 11:13 AM   #27
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I do believe you are correct!
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Old 02-02-2009, 11:17 AM   #28
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Ok, now I'm confused
This isn't my panel - just as an example
The bar on the far left is a grounding bar ONLY - since it isn't connected to the Neutral/Ground "bar" on the panel ? Yes, No?
Yes

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Now on either side of the panel is another bar
On my panel these are tied together & secured to the case by a green ground screw (SE - service entrance)
Are you calling these the "bus" ?
Bus, bar, terminal strip whatever you want to call it. Yes. You also have hot buses that the breakers attach to so you may chose to just call them terminal strips to avoid confusing the two.

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Now the reason you can't use the bar on the left for neutrals is because it doesn't have the stand-off insulators? But if it did have stand-offs you could then attach a wire to connect it to the neutral/ground "bus"
If so, what size wire would be needed?
There should never be any reason to add more neutral terminal bars. Your panel will allow at least 2 grounds of the same size under a screw. One neutral per terminal connection. If you need more circuits and need more neutral terminal connections you add the ground bar to the left and move grounds to it to free up space on the neutral/ground bars the factory installed.

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And the reason not to use the bar on the left is that you do not want current flowing thru the case, which is what would happen if you landed neutrals there
Yep you got it

I think this started to make more sense as I typed it out
Unless I'm still off?
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Old 02-02-2009, 01:41 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Stubbie View Post
You do not add neutral bus bars they are factory installed and if in service equipment you may land both neutrals and grounds on them. If you add any bus bars and mount them directly on the panel metal either making your own holes or using the factory supplied mounting holes you are adding a ground bar. No neutrals can land on these. Most panels will have predrilled swaged holes in the panel back that accept ground bus bars. You need the correct ground bar as Jerry said so that the mounting holes line up with the new ground bar.
In my parents CH panel, there were no mounting holes for a new grounding bar. I drilled out 2 holes, and tapped them to 10-32 threads. Then installed a CH bar with the two standard 10-32 screws that came with it. The screws are all the way through the box.

I checked the resistance of the ground bar to the metal case and to the panels built in bar, and read virtually no resistance, even on a sensitive setting on my rms meter. The resistance readings were all the same as the readings between the panels 2 factory neutral bars.

Can I assume this is properly bonded to the box?

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Old 02-02-2009, 01:56 PM   #30
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Yes and you are in compliance with 250.8.

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