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Old 04-22-2008, 09:25 PM   #16
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You won't like me for this, but I inspect panels every day wired by licensed (often master) electricians. I often see neutrals doubled or tripled up under the same lug. It is wrong every time, no matter who does it.

Depending on the panel, you can typically double or triple grounds of the same wire size under the same lug. Perhaps you can consolidate some of your grounds under the same lug, thereby creating room for your neutrals that are doubled up.

Or, you could add a ground bar (or a larger ground bar) to the panel jacket and use the current bars for neutrals. They don't have to be isolated as long as this is your main panel (where the main disconnect is) and not a sub-panel, but you can't land neutrals and grounds under the same lug.

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Old 04-22-2008, 09:59 PM   #17
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After having read through this post I have to ask a question on an install I just did.
I just installed a new service panel and a generator transfer panel.
The generator panel came pre-assembled with 9 breakers installed in it.
The brochure states it can hold up to 16 circuits.
The panel itself has a ground bar and a separate neutral bar.
Problem I have is that the ground bar has 5 holes in and the neutral has 6 holes in it.
Why would they do this if you are not supposed (or aren't allowed) to double up any of them?
What to do about a situation like this?

The panel is a Powerstay Cat. No. 501210
http://www.gen-tran.com/assets/pdfs/...chureFINAL.pdf

http://www.gen-tran.com/assets/pdfs/MTSinstall.pdf
Just a hunch here, but maybe they want you to go back out to the store and buy more buses to "upgrade/expand" the panel. They give you so many but you have to BUY another buss to take advantage of the panels' full potential. Just guess. Lot of companies do this. It says it is EXPANDABLE but not until you purchase more stuff.....
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Old 04-23-2008, 11:13 AM   #18
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If I have an unused 220 in my basement. The wired have been pulled and capped from the breaker, but the neutral is still connected. Since it is not connected to a breaker, can I remove the neutral to gain space for another circuit on my neutral bar?
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Old 04-23-2008, 11:37 AM   #19
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Yes you can.
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Old 04-23-2008, 11:43 AM   #20
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for your job... the hardworking/time consuming part is running the wire and drilling holes.... if that was done... the rest is the fast part.... but more scarely part if one will say as you need to work on the main panel... I think if you can do all those running wire stuff yourself... you might as well do the other two parts as well after reading a good book from the library... make sure your state allow home owner to do that though... but normally electrical work requires inspection and that also cost money...

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Old 04-23-2008, 11:59 AM   #21
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Thanks everyone, I will give it a go and ask any questions if I run into something. I'll probably shut the main off for peace of mind. Thanks again!
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Old 04-23-2008, 09:21 PM   #22
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I am an Electrician of some 15 years + . . .you seem like a nice fella

After reading ALL of the posts above . .my opinion is that this is NOT an DIY'er project..it has the potential of " electrocute the home owner / start a fire / blow up the new microwave" project

Please get a few more bids if needed then have a professional do it,
no one in here will lose any sleep if your DIY attempt ends badly . . .but you will and it isnt worth it

This isnt DIY . . .home run..panel full....nope pass on this one Friend
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Old 04-26-2008, 12:39 PM   #23
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No, One wire per terminal. Go to HD or lowes and buy a neutral terminal bar kit. If you know the brand and model number you can get one that will fit the mounting hole arrangement. Most panels will accept more than one terminal bar. Take a good look at the one you have. Is there a mounting hole below or above the existing bar? If so, you may have a short bar and it can be replaced with a longer one with more terminals.
Do not try to attach a terminal bar with sheet metal screws or where one is not intended to be installed.

Find a longer terminal bar or install another one if the panel will accept it.
The electricians that put more than one wire under one terminal were either lazy or did not know it is a code violation.

Ps.....You may have to go to an electrical supply house if the big box stores do not carry your type of panel.

Kingsmurf.......You may be correct on this. The poster does not seem to have a clue regarding this work. No offense to the poster.

Last edited by J. V.; 04-26-2008 at 12:47 PM.
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Old 04-26-2008, 06:02 PM   #24
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Ye of little faith. Its finished and works great! Thanks to everyone
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Old 04-26-2008, 07:43 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thekctermite View Post
You won't like me for this, but I inspect panels every day wired by licensed (often master) electricians. I often see neutrals doubled or tripled up under the same lug. It is wrong every time, no matter who does it.
Depending on when it was done.
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Old 04-26-2008, 10:45 PM   #26
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Depending on when it was done.
JR-

From what you wrote, it sounds like it was acceptable at one time and then deemed illegal by a later code revision. Do you know/remember which year it was?

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Old 04-27-2008, 10:46 PM   #27
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JR-

From what you wrote, it sounds like it was acceptable at one time and then deemed illegal by a later code revision. Do you know/remember which year it was?

Thanks,
Jimmy
Jimmy, it was the 2002 code which prohibited it. Before that, this was in the UL listings, but many neglected to read those. In residential, it was common and accepted to put the neutral and ground for a given circuit under the same screw. At least in my neck of the woods. I'd like to see every panel come with enough terminals for all the grounds and neutrals to have their own hole. But then everyone needs a dream.
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Old 04-28-2008, 07:27 AM   #28
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My home panel has more than one netural on a screw. I have run into this many times.
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Old 04-28-2008, 10:18 AM   #29
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My home panel has more than one neutral on a screw. I have run into this many times.
Oh yeah, these are all over the place. Not correct, but very common. I see this a lot.

Now I worry a little that some DIY person is going to run to his panel and try to correct this, and neglect to turn off all the effected circuits before pulling the neutrals out, and frying some of his equipment. In that case, leaving them alone would be a better choice.
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Old 04-28-2008, 10:46 AM   #30
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Now I worry a little that some DIY person is going to run to his panel and try to correct this, and neglect to turn off all the effected circuits before pulling the neutrals out, and frying some of his equipment. In that case, leaving them alone would be a better choice.
Good point, JR. I think it's important to remember that while having more than one neutral wire terminated under a screw is not legal by today's code standards, this condition, if it exists, does not compromise the integrity of an existing installation. Another reason to shut off the power before working on your electrical system if you are unfamiliar with what you're doing and/or dealing with.

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