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Old 06-14-2013, 02:40 PM   #46
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GFCI will not protect five outlets


Quote:
Originally Posted by Oso954 View Post
No, it doesn't.
Oso.... Quite honestly, I'm not smart/knowledgeable enough to understand the circuitry.....

1) Is that a standard GFI ?

and 2) per my previous inquiry:

House Helper... Sorry to be so dense/slow understanding this 120 HZ circuitry that I never knew was in a GFI.

Is it just a duplicative type check by the GFI that there is not a hot ground on the load side performed prior to any load being placed on the load side...

Because if you have a hot ground (neutral- ground "short"/ jump/ connection) on the load side, the GFI is going to trip anyway as soon as a load is placed on the load side..... so is it not just a duplicative type double check.

Am I still confused or missing something.... THANKS for hanging/explaining to me.

Best

Peter

Honestly, I never knew about this function in a GFI, apparently several of us did not... were you aware of this function (the 120Hz test without a load) within the GFI???

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Old 06-14-2013, 02:47 PM   #47
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GFCI will not protect five outlets


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Is it just a duplicative type check
What in the world is this painful sounding word, Pete?
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Old 06-14-2013, 03:08 PM   #48
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GFCI will not protect five outlets


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Originally Posted by sirsparksalot View Post
What in the world is this painful sounding word, Pete?
Sir Sparky.... The way HouseHelper explained, this 120HZ circuitry would send a current potential down the load side neutral (with no load on the GFI load side) and if it was completed (by a presumably crossed neutral and ground) the GFI would trip.

Now if there is a load on the load side of the GFI, and you have a crossed neutral and ground, the GFI is going to detect an imbalance between it's hot and neutral, and trip the circuit.... SAME THING as above.

In trying to understand the GFI, I'm wondering if the point/reason for this 120Hz circuitry, is just a double check, a duplicative test, for a crossed neutral and ground.... as that exists allready in the GFI.

Admittedly, the 120Hz circuitry apparently can protect the circuit without a load on... but it seems redundant or duplicative of what the GFI allready accomplishes.

My understanding does not quite make sense to me, so I'm asking if I am missing something and not understanding.

Best

Peter
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Old 06-14-2013, 03:08 PM   #49
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GFCI will not protect five outlets


Quote:
Originally Posted by sirsparksalot

What in the world is this painful sounding word, Pete?
Maybe as in redundancy?
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Old 06-14-2013, 03:22 PM   #50
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GFCI will not protect five outlets


Quote:
Originally Posted by HouseHelper View Post
If you are talking about on the load side of the GFCI, it most certainly does "know" if the ground and neutral are connected. It will trip immediately, no load required.
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Yes it will. Modern GFCIs can detect a low resistance connection between the grounded and grounding conductors on the load side that will result in immediate tripping with no load required.
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Originally Posted by HouseHelper View Post
On a neutral (grounded) - ground (grounding) conductor fault, yes. There is a small induced current applied to the load neutral at 120Hz. If there is a low resistance connection between the neutral and ground on the load side, current flow results through the neutral via the service panel N-G connection. Since there is no concurrent flow on the hot, the GFI sensor causes the device to trip.
Sir Sparky and Oso... I guess I was never aware of this function in a GFI... as a mater of fact, I had no idea a GFI would/ could trip unless there was a load on the circuit.

And just trying to understand this.
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Old 06-14-2013, 03:24 PM   #51
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GFCI will not protect five outlets


I would call it typical, rather than standard. It is based on the LM1851 chip.

The check is continuous, whether or not there is a load on the GFCI. It is looking for that neutral-ground short.

Here is a write up that may help.
http://www.rhtubs.com/GFCI/GFCI.htm
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Old 06-14-2013, 03:25 PM   #52
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GFCI will not protect five outlets


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Maybe as in redundancy?
Exactly... thanks Kyle
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Old 06-14-2013, 03:40 PM   #53
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GFCI will not protect five outlets


Since I do not even see a connection to the ground in that diagram you are going to have to explain to me how it can detect anything in relation to neutral and ground.
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Old 06-14-2013, 03:41 PM   #54
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GFCI will not protect five outlets


Quote:
Originally Posted by Oso954 View Post
I would call it typical, rather than standard. It is based on the LM1851 chip.

The check is continuous, whether or not there is a load on the GFCI. It is looking for that neutral-ground short.

Here is a write up that may help.
http://www.rhtubs.com/GFCI/GFCI.htm
Oso...Thanks... I'm convinced...NEVER knew that before, AND LEARNED SOMETHING NEW TODAY. (Actually I had gone to Google but did not find that good explanation that you found.)

Thanks to you and HouseHelper!

(Not that it is all that important now that I know it's there, but I guess I would think of that as a safety type redundancy or a duplicative type test in instances of a N-G fault.)

Best

Peter
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Old 06-14-2013, 03:51 PM   #55
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GFCI will not protect five outlets


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Originally Posted by joed View Post
Since I do not even see a connection to the ground in that diagram you are going to have to explain to me how it can detect anything in relation to neutral and ground.
OK.... Joed.... Now that I'm an expert on this subject (BS), I'm going to try..... this may be funny when I screw it up Joed.

The GFI apparently sends a small current potential (why at 120 Hz I don't know, or care) from it's load side down the NEUTRAL.

If no ground-neutral short exists, current does not flow...right.
GFI does not trip, because hot neutral is in balance.

If ground neutral fault exists, current flows down neutral to fault point and runs back to main on the ground.
GFI load has no current on hot, but current on Neutral, is out of balance and trips.

GFI never connects to ground.

Well, I'm open to any corrections if I'm screwed up.
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Old 06-14-2013, 04:00 PM   #56
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GFCI will not protect five outlets


Quote:
Originally Posted by Oso954 View Post
I would call it typical, rather than standard. It is based on the LM1851 chip.

The check is continuous, whether or not there is a load on the GFCI. It is looking for that neutral-ground short.

Here is a write up that may help.
http://www.rhtubs.com/GFCI/GFCI.htm
I had never seen this circuitry before. Next time GFCI comes up on a Christmas light forum I belong to I will post this diagram.

This is how I have always seen the circuit.

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Old 06-14-2013, 04:10 PM   #57
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GFCI will not protect five outlets


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Originally Posted by KStatefan View Post
I had never seen this circuitry before. Next time GFCI comes up on a Christmas light forum I belong to I will post this diagram.

This is how I have always seen the circuit.

KState... That in principal was how I thought GFIs worked. Oso notes that it a certain chip # for aGFI functions with this neutral-grnd fault monitor.
Also, HouseHelper I believe referred to all "modern" GFI's, perhaps both are indicating this is an updated more recent GFI model.

Would be tangentally interesting to know when this came along?
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Old 06-14-2013, 04:42 PM   #58
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GFCI will not protect five outlets


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Next time GFCI comes up on a Christmas light forum I belong to I will post this diagram.
Not sure it will be of interest. As soon as you are talking a 2 wire load (whether it is an old house circuit or 2 wire xmas lights) the 120hz circuit becomes moot.
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Old 06-14-2013, 05:15 PM   #59
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GFCI will not protect five outlets


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Not sure it will be of interest. As soon as you are talking a 2 wire load (whether it is an old house circuit or 2 wire xmas lights) the 120hz circuit becomes moot.
That does not matter. The GFCI threads get very heated and normally get closed.
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Old 06-14-2013, 05:18 PM   #60
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GFCI will not protect five outlets


So, are you trying to put the fire out, or fanning the flames ?

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