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Old 11-28-2008, 07:08 PM   #1
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GFCI and Switched Receptacle


I've read all sorts of helpful posts that are helping me along the way but I'm still not quite understanding whether what I'm about to do is ok or not.

With that said, here's my situation. In a kitchenette I'm building I have an outlet in my cabinets that I want switch-controlled (for under cabinet lighting). On this same circuit I plan to have a GFCI outlet. The switch and the GFCI are in the same box down by the counter. The attachment is a diagram of what I've done. Will this be safe?
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GFCI and Switched Receptacle-circuit.jpg  

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Old 11-28-2008, 07:25 PM   #2
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GFCI and Switched Receptacle


You got it wrong, I modified your pic.

You have to keep the neutral on the load side only for the switched outlets and have to keep the hot on the load side for the switched outlets.

You will need two 12/2s in between, as you can see.

The "load" side of a gfci is the protected output, and the "line" is the input.

If you wired it your way, the gfci would trip whenever a load is drawn.

If you are using metal boxes, they must be bonded to the ground.
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GFCI and Switched Receptacle-circuit.jpg  


Last edited by rgsgww; 11-28-2008 at 07:32 PM.
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Old 11-28-2008, 07:35 PM   #3
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GFCI and Switched Receptacle


Thanks for your reply. Oops, I got the load and line mixed up in my diagram.

The thing here is that all I have going between the switched receptacle and the switch/gfci is 12/3. Do I have to put new wire in instead? Is the problem that the neutral is shared by both the switched receptacle and the gfci? I don't necessarily want (unless it's required) to have the switch/receptacle gfci protected, so that's why I pigtailed the hot with the gfci and switch.

Here's my modified diagram.
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GFCI and Switched Receptacle-circuit.jpg  
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Old 11-28-2008, 07:49 PM   #4
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GFCI and Switched Receptacle


Ok, thank you very much. I do want to make sure I'm clear on one thing. The switched receptacle is up inside a cabinet (next to another receptacle for a microwave). Since that receptacle is up away from water inside a cabinet do I still need to worry about GFCI?

If so, what's the best way to run romex (I have plastic boxes) inside a finished wall? What about the staples usually used to secure the romex to the studs? I'll have to start looking around for information on that if it comes down to it.

Thanks again.
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Old 11-28-2008, 07:55 PM   #5
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GFCI and Switched Receptacle


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Originally Posted by cygnl7 View Post
Ok, thank you very much. I do want to make sure I'm clear on one thing. The switched receptacle is up inside a cabinet (next to another receptacle for a microwave). Since that receptacle is up away from water inside a cabinet do I still need to worry about GFCI?

If so, what's the best way to run romex (I have plastic boxes) inside a finished wall? What about the staples usually used to secure the romex to the studs? I'll have to start looking around for information on that if it comes down to it.

Thanks again.

No, it's not serving a countertop.

If you fish romex in a finished wall, there is no need to secure it.

Some reason my post was deleted, ( I was editing it a little bit)

210.8 (6)

Kitchens-where the receptacles are installed to serve the counter top surfaces. (are required to have gfi protection)

Last edited by rgsgww; 11-28-2008 at 08:00 PM.
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Old 11-28-2008, 08:09 PM   #6
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GFCI and Switched Receptacle


The revised setup will work, but if this circuit is part of the small appliance branch circuits that are required to serve the kitchen, then it may be a Code violation to feed permanently installed lighting. See 210.52(B)(2) and 210.70.
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Old 11-28-2008, 08:22 PM   #7
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GFCI and Switched Receptacle


That may be a Code violation, but it is safe, nonetheless.
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Old 11-28-2008, 09:22 PM   #8
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The revised setup will work, but if this circuit is part of the small appliance branch circuits that are required to serve the kitchen, then it may be a Code violation to feed permanently installed lighting. See 210.52(B)(2) and 210.70.
Ahh, I didn't know that. I guess it depends on what the definition of "permanently installed lighting" is, then. The under cabinet lights I have plug into the receptacle and will be mounted with double-stick tape or something similar. Is that considered permanently installed?

I just noticed something else. I actually have 3 20A circuits servicing the kitchenette, although one isn't on the counter top but is in the cabinets for the microwave. So I suppose I might be able to squeeze by with the switched circuit being a "general purpose" circuit for Exception No. 1 in 210.25(B)(1)...? I guess I'd need to read a little more closely some of the other sections referenced in the code.

Maybe I'm getting into things that need to be addressed by a local inspector since these nitty-gritty details seem to be handled differently by different people?

Well, anyway, you all have been extremely helpful. Thank you!

Last edited by cygnl7; 11-28-2008 at 09:31 PM.
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Old 11-28-2008, 10:48 PM   #9
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GFCI and Switched Receptacle


Oh, and I suppose I wouldn't be against putting the switch and receptacle on the load side of the GFCI but I don't see any way of doing that with the 12/3 wire I have running between them. I'm up for suggestions on that, though.
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Old 11-29-2008, 07:55 AM   #10
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GFCI and Switched Receptacle


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Originally Posted by cygnl7 View Post
Oh, and I suppose I wouldn't be against putting the switch and receptacle on the load side of the GFCI but I don't see any way of doing that with the 12/3 wire I have running between them. I'm up for suggestions on that, though.
It's OK to leave it non-GFCI protected. If you have two circuits serving the countertop already, then you could argue that the third is a general purpose circuit, and allowed to feed the lights. It all comes down to what the inspector says.
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Old 11-29-2008, 08:17 AM   #11
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GFCI and Switched Receptacle


(copied from another forum)

If you keep the single 12/3 cable between the outlet boxes (and no GFCI protection for the upper, switched, receptacle) I would wire nut and pigtail the neutral in the upper box rather than screw them to the receptacle. This way, the next owner of the house won't unwittingly break the neutral and leave the hot to the lower box intact if he should change out the upper receptacle. (extension of the pigtail rule for multiwire branch circuits)
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Old 11-30-2008, 01:48 PM   #12
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Are you all just drawing these diagrams in something like gimp or photoshop?
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Old 11-30-2008, 06:47 PM   #13
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GFCI and Switched Receptacle


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Are you all just drawing these diagrams in something like gimp or photoshop?

I used paint for the quick edits...I sometimes use the gimp.
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Old 11-30-2008, 10:11 PM   #14
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GFCI and Switched Receptacle


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I used paint for the quick edits...I sometimes use the gimp.
I use the gimp to touch things up but for this I was using FelixCAD LT. I'm no pro, but the price can't be beat (free). It's a decent piece of CAD software for all my needs.

Last edited by cygnl7; 11-30-2008 at 10:13 PM.
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Old 12-01-2008, 07:14 AM   #15
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GFCI and Switched Receptacle


Quote:
Originally Posted by cygnl7 View Post
I use the gimp to touch things up but for this I was using FelixCAD LT. I'm no pro, but the price can't be beat (free). It's a decent piece of CAD software for all my needs.

Thanks for the link, I downloaded it right now because you can't beat that (free).

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