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colosseo 04-28-2009 02:39 PM

gfci outlets in bath
 
the project is a two-family townhouse renovation.
new bathroom, new wall with UL listed recessed cabinet with two GFCI outlets located inside the cabinet.
is it required to install an additional GFCI outlet on the wall on the side of the cabinet?

Thank you.

PaliBob 04-28-2009 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colosseo (Post 266744)
,,,,,new wall with UL listed recessed cabinet with two GFCI outlets located inside the cabinet.
...........

Can you post a pic or to a link that has a pic?

Piedmont 04-28-2009 03:30 PM

1 Attachment(s)
You only need a single GFCI outlet in a bathroom, everything else attaches to its "load side" and will be GFCI protected as well. If a ground fault happens in a receptacle/light downstream the one GFCI recept will detect it and trip. Basically anything plugged into the load side of a GFCI is protected, so paying extra $ for another GFCI downstream doesn't usually make sense (and some say two GFCI's on the same circuit can trick each other to trip and may not work while others have never had a problem having more than one). A GFCI usually comes with stickers to place on the regular recepts downstream to let people know it's protected by a GFCI somewhere upstream (recept or breaker). Also, the only way to protect lights is to have them connected to a GFCI's load side.

Proper wiring of the one GFCI is paramount, the power coming into the bathroom must first go DIRECT into the line side of the GFCI without wire nuts, splits, etc. Then run short white & black leads out of the LOAD side of the GFCI and wirenut the lights, recepts, and runners to those leads and everything will be protected. That insures the power must go through the GFCI before it heads to any other fixture.

You can install another (normal) recept if you want... it sounds like the cabinet has internal recepts I'd personally like one or two external. I drew a picture, and let me tell you it can get very busy in the box with the GFCI. I didn't draw the grounds (greens/bare copper) or switches.

Speedy Petey 04-28-2009 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piedmont (Post 266761)
You only need a single GFCI outlet in a bathroom, everything else attaches to its "load side" and will be GFCI protected as well. If a ground fault happens in a receptacle/light downstream the one GFCI recept will detect it and trip. Basically, anything plugged into the load side of a GFCI is protected also so paying extra $ for a GFCI downstream doesn't usually make sense (and some say having they can trip each other so may not be recommended having more than one on a circuit). The only way to protect lights is to have them connected to a GFCI's load side.

Question, WHY protect the lights in the first place?
You only have to protect a vent fan if it is over the tub/shower, and this is only because the manufacturer requires.




Quote:

Originally Posted by Piedmont (Post 266761)
Proper wiring of the one GFCI is paramount, the power coming into the bathroom must go DIRECT into the line side of the GFCI without wire nuts, splits, etc.

This is simply not true. There is no requirement at all like this.
The GFI can be wired where ever you want in the circuit, as long as all receptacles in the bath are GFI protected somehow.

Speedy Petey 04-28-2009 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colosseo (Post 266744)
is it required to install an additional GFCI outlet on the wall on the side of the cabinet?

Yes, you must have one on a wall at each basin (within 36").

colosseo 04-28-2009 04:03 PM

yes
 
Thank you for all the feedback.

from NEC:
At least one receptacle outlet shall be installed in bathrooms
within 900 mm (36 in.) of the outside edge of
each basin. The receptacle outlet shall be located above
or adjacent to the basin location. This receptacle shall
be in addition to any receptacle that is a part of a
luminaire (fixture) or appliance. The receptacle shall
not be enclosed within a bathroom cabinet or vanity.:(

Piedmont 04-28-2009 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speedy Petey (Post 266770)
Question, WHY protect the lights in the first place?
You only have to protect a vent fan if it is over the tub/shower, and this is only because the manufacturer requires.

The answer is simple, I take it you don't have a daughter :laughing: I'm not the only one who thinks it's impossible to get daughters to turn the fan on (I sometimes catch my wife as well) when showering so... take a 110F water when it leaves the shower head (and 105F reaching her skin) x 35-45 minutes in a bathroom w/out a fan on and you end up with water dripping off the ceilings & walls. I currently have the paint steaming off the walls in our bathroom. Also, ever seen a woman with long hair after a shower, they put their head down and comb it and then quickly stand up while flipping it backwards my wife hair hits the main bathroom light (it's recessed).

So that's the why. This reminds me of the code that says the lights in bathrooms can be attached to other circuits if the recepts are on a dedicated 20A GFCI which I only agree with on 1/2 baths but that's just me

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speedy Petey
This is simply not true. There is no requirement at all like this.
The GFI can be wired where ever you want in the circuit, as long as all receptacles in the bath are GFI protected somehow.

True, but again do it for the daughters & wives of the world.

frenchelectrican 04-28-2009 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piedmont (Post 266805)
The answer is simple, I take it you don't have a daughter :laughing: I'm not the only one who thinks it's impossible to get daughters to turn the fan on (I sometimes catch my wife as well) when showering so... take a 110F water when it leaves the shower head (and 105F reaching her skin) x 35-45 minutes in a bathroom w/out a fan on and you end up with water dripping off the ceilings & walls.

.


I allready slove that issue with that with a humidist control so if the huimdty level get over X amout what I set at it will automatic come on and it will stay on until it get below of that level and yeah the timer do kick in the same time it will shut off about 60 min after it kicked on.

Merci,Marc

Speedy Petey 04-28-2009 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piedmont (Post 266805)
The answer is simple, I take it you don't have a daughter :laughing: I'm not the only one who thinks it's impossible to get daughters to turn the fan on (I sometimes catch my wife as well) when showering so... take a 110F water when it leaves the shower head (and 105F reaching her skin) x 35-45 minutes in a bathroom w/out a fan on and you end up with water dripping off the ceilings & walls. I currently have the paint steaming off the walls in our bathroom. Also, ever seen a woman with long hair after a shower, they put their head down and comb it and then quickly stand up while flipping it backwards my wife hair hits the main bathroom light (it's recessed).

Actually I do have a teenage daughter and a wife. This has never been an issue. I absolutely do not see this as any reason to GFI protect lighting.
Beyond that I won't comment at the risk of being called a jerk again.

Might I suggest that if you feel the need to continue to give electrical advice that you preface things like this with the fact that it is your opinion and not code required.



Quote:

Originally Posted by Piedmont (Post 266805)
True, but again do it for the daughters & wives of the world.

Do what???Avoid splices and go directly to the GFI? Again....WHY? What purpose would it serve.


I am curious. What is your field of expertise?

Michael Thomas 04-28-2009 09:56 PM

http://www.mikeholt.com/onlinetraini...03537600_2.gif

Maureentoo 04-29-2009 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piedmont (Post 266805)
The answer is simple, I take it you don't have a daughter :laughing: I'm not the only one who thinks it's impossible to get daughters to turn the fan on (I sometimes catch my wife as well) when showering so... take a 110F water when it leaves the shower head (and 105F reaching her skin) x 35-45 minutes in a bathroom w/out a fan on and you end up with water dripping off the ceilings & walls. I currently have the paint steaming off the walls in our bathroom. Also, ever seen a woman with long hair after a shower, they put their head down and comb it and then quickly stand up while flipping it backwards my wife hair hits the main bathroom light (it's recessed).

So that's the why. This reminds me of the code that says the lights in bathrooms can be attached to other circuits if the recepts are on a dedicated 20A GFCI which I only agree with on 1/2 baths but that's just me



True, but again do it for the daughters & wives of the world.

This was too funny. LMAO.


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