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Old 06-09-2009, 02:10 PM   #16
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Yoyizit,

Where did you get those stats from? Approx a 50% chance of the refer tripping the GFI over a weekend? Show your data. Even if the refer were to trip the GFI you would have a 2 in 7 chance, based on time, which is less than 1/3.

Are you aware that commercial refers are on GFI protectred circuits? How often are they tripping?

What UL approved and NEC compliant method do you propose to ground the frame of the refrigerator?

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Old 06-09-2009, 02:22 PM   #17
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What UL approved and NEC compliant method do you propose to ground the frame of the refrigerator?
I've never seen a fridge w/o a grounded cord.. I gotta imagine it's bonded to the frame already.
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Old 06-09-2009, 02:41 PM   #18
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>> means my replies

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Yoyizit,

Where did you get those stats from?
>>Guesswork, and it's not because I haven't tried to find data on how much overall benefit these high tech gadgets actually offer the public.
The GFCI people do not have much interest in the rate of false positives becoming known, any more than the medical people would want you to know the rates of false positives and false negatives for the expensive tests they call for.

I'd say it would trip falsely at least once/yr to a 50-50 likelihood and each weekend with a 5% chance, but I'm open to get some data from forum members on GFCI troubleshooting where the answer is TNF [Trouble Not Found].

Are you aware that commercial refers are on GFI protectred circuits? How often are they tripping?
>>I'd like to see the specs on the fridges and on the GFCIs they use, particularly the trip time vs. leakage current.
I suppose in this setting one countermeasure to false trips would be an overtemp alarm.

This is a capitalist country and so commerce speaks with a loud voice. Their fridges and maybe their GFCIs are probably not the same as yours.
As a consumer, if you complain about defective products you're lucky you don't get waterboarded.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_of_life
http://www.cnn.com/US/9909/10/ivey.memo/

What UL approved and NEC compliant method do you propose to ground the frame of the refrigerator?
>>I'd hope running a ground wire from the shell to a ground is not prohibited by any rule, but here in 2009, I can't say for sure.
If the OP elects not to go with a GFCI I'd say his Utility Function for spoiled food (let's say a utility of -$50) outweighs his Utility Function for the tiny chance (1330/330,000,000 each year) of getting electrocuted.

Believe it or not, if you walk out to your car during a thunderstorm you are equating your usefulness for Death with your utility for going shopping when you feel like it and not when the storm stops. And if you are risk-seeking, you might purposely wait for a storm to go out walking.

Last edited by Yoyizit; 06-09-2009 at 07:19 PM.
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Old 06-09-2009, 02:49 PM   #19
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tiny chance (1330/330,000,000 each year) of getting electrocuted.
To be fair, wouldn't you have to compare the probability of getting electrocuted by a refrigerator w/o GFI protection vs. one with GFI protection? There is always a probability of electrocution (even if very low) with or w/o a GFI. You'd have to use the differential of the two probabilities as a basis for any benefit analysis.

And I suppose you could be less accurate by looking at UL-listed appliances in general, or more accurate by looking at only the OP's exact model of fridge (though there are unlikely to be any available statistics on it re. electrocutions).
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Old 06-09-2009, 03:52 PM   #20
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The chance of getting electrocuted with a NEC compliant installation and UL approved appliances is nearly zero.

Usually it's a combination of blatant violations that leads to bad accidents. Just like air safety, it's never just one thing.
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Old 06-09-2009, 04:06 PM   #21
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Lets see.......how many times can I survive my fridge food spoiling?
I'd say just about every time as long as I don't eat it

Now I'll chance that VS being electrocuted Thanks
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Old 06-09-2009, 04:44 PM   #22
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xxxxx

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Old 06-09-2009, 04:46 PM   #23
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To be fair, wouldn't you have to compare the probability of getting electrocuted by a refrigerator w/o GFI protection vs. one with GFI protection? There is always a probability of electrocution (even if very low) with or w/o a GFI. You'd have to use the differential of the two probabilities as a basis for any benefit analysis.
That's the data I don't have. People may have been more careful before GFCIs so there may be no overall change.

Correction: with a 1% chance of a GFCI tripping on a weekend (99% chance of no trip), your chance of no trip in X consecutive weekends drops to 50% when X = (log 0.5)/(log 0.99) = 70 weekends.
I'd think within 8 weekends you'd have a stinky fridge. Maybe you could run an office pool and use the money to buy new food.
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Old 06-09-2009, 05:54 PM   #24
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I think the occurances of a refrigerator tripping a GFI are probably way over estimated. I am no statistician tho.

PS, please do not insert additional materials into my posts when they are things that I have not said.
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Old 06-09-2009, 07:05 PM   #25
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I imagine that the insurance underwriter who covers the business's WORKPLACE INJURY liability thinks that you need a GFCI.
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Old 06-09-2009, 07:07 PM   #26
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I imagine that the insurance underwriter who covers the business's WORKPLACE INJURY liability thinks that you need a GFCI.
Yeah, I'm sure any lawsuit after a wrongful death would find out that it was not GFCI protected. That could very well give the insurance company an excuse to find you at fault
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Old 06-09-2009, 07:13 PM   #27
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Don't get me wrong, I DO NOT think that the current system of litigation in the US is good (that's why I stopped practicing law). But, I don't think a business can afford to ignore safety issues when the health/safety of their employees is at risk.

But, then again, I don't think homeowners have a lesser duty to adhere to code, just less potential liability.

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