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Old 02-03-2010, 07:05 PM   #16
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GFCI breakers equivalent to GFCI outlets? Any code pitfalls?


This is an addendum to (spark plug) Post #15.
The combination AFCI Breaker also gives GFCI protection. So, there will be no need to add GFCI receptacles on any circuit where you installed the breakers.!

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Old 02-03-2010, 07:12 PM   #17
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GFCI breakers equivalent to GFCI outlets? Any code pitfalls?


Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought a combination AFCI breaker was additional AFCI protection?

Like it says here...
http://www.afcisafety.org/qa.html#comb
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Old 02-03-2010, 07:18 PM   #18
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GFCI breakers equivalent to GFCI outlets? Any code pitfalls?


Quote:
Originally Posted by spark plug View Post
This is an addendum to (spark plug) Post #15.
The combination AFCI Breaker also gives GFCI protection. So, there will be no need to add GFCI receptacles on any circuit where you installed the breakers.!
I've yet to hear of a combo AFCI/GFCI

A combo AFCI has different trips, but not GFCI
Its for ARCS only

Quote:
In addition to the protection provided by the Branch Feeder AFCI, the Combination AFCI provides for series arc detection down to 5 amperes. This series arc detection is beneficial to detect lower level arcing in both branch circuits and power supply cords. Combination AFCI protection is required by the NECŪ as of January 1, 2008.
GFCI provides Ground fault protection
They are 2 Totally different things

Quote:
There is a major difference between the functioning of an AFCI as compared to a GFCI (Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter). The function of the GFCI is to protect people from the deadly effects of electric shock that could occur if parts of an electrical appliance or tool become energized due to a ground fault. The function of the AFCI is to protect the branch circuit wiring from dangerous arcing faults that could initiate an electrical fire.
AFCI and GFCI technologies can co-exist with each other and are a great complement for the most complete protection that can be provided on a circuit.
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Old 02-03-2010, 07:29 PM   #19
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GFCI breakers equivalent to GFCI outlets? Any code pitfalls?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuba_Dave View Post
I've yet to hear of a combo AFCI/GFCI

A combo AFCI has different trips, but not GFCI
Its for ARCS only



GFCI provides Ground fault protection
They are 2 Totally different things
I received a CD from a breaker mfr. (I have to look it up. I'll post when I find it.) where they list all the functions enumerated above + the GFCI protection.
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Old 02-03-2010, 08:11 PM   #20
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GFCI breakers equivalent to GFCI outlets? Any code pitfalls?


Cutler-Hammer makes combo AFCI/GFCI breakers (yep, GFCI is 5mA trip).
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Old 02-03-2010, 08:58 PM   #21
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GFCI breakers equivalent to GFCI outlets? Any code pitfalls?


Quote:
Originally Posted by williswires View Post
Cutler-Hammer makes combo AFCI/GFCI breakers (yep, GFCI is 5mA trip).
Thanks. I know I am not daydreaming. But generally, the term Combination AFCI stands for multi-level Arc Fault protection. As opposed to the original, I should say early issue breakers, that addressed only a limited kind of arc faults (and not others). For example. Arc faults on the Neutral were not addressed. Or Across the line (Parallel fault). Getting back to the subject at hand. They indeed protect against ground-faults, too. But if you have a Grounded Neutral on the circuit the breaker will not work. It will trip out instantly. So those have to be cleared before installing the Combo/Combo AFCI breaker. The method to find the G. Neutrals is, with a regular GFI breaker. In old residential wiring those faults are quite common. For several reasons. Many years ago, even electricians were not aware of the impact of diverting the returning current from the Neutral through another path (parallel path to ground) . So, whenever a problem occurred, they hooked the (return) wire to the nearest Grounded object. Like a water or steam pipe. Or, if there was a short circuit, the service electrician took a shortcut. Instead of tracing the fault, and repairing it, he just reversed the wires. Hot became Neutral. (short and all) and the Neutral turned into the power supplying wire.!

Last edited by spark plug; 02-03-2010 at 09:06 PM.
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Old 02-03-2010, 09:11 PM   #22
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GFCI breakers equivalent to GFCI outlets? Any code pitfalls?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy_Bob View Post
Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought a combination AFCI breaker was additional AFCI protection?

Like it says here...
http://www.afcisafety.org/qa.html#comb
Billy Bob. Kindly read from that link under the Heading; "AFCI and GFCI protection. "You can also have both in one package". (Meaning one assembly. in the panel.)!
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Old 02-03-2010, 09:50 PM   #23
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GFCI breakers equivalent to GFCI outlets? Any code pitfalls?


Well I should have read a bit further!

So what do you call a combination AFCI which also has GFCI protection?

A combination combination AFCI breaker?
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Old 02-03-2010, 09:53 PM   #24
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GFCI breakers equivalent to GFCI outlets? Any code pitfalls?


I found this, which is interesting........

Quote:
NOTE: AFCI circuit breakers are not required by the NEC to be dual-listed (AFCI/GFI or AFCI/GFCI). Nevertheless, all four U.S. manufacturers include ground fault circuitry and Cutler-Hammer has chosen to dual-list their devices. The NEC should make dual-listing a requirement since there is no cost difference between dual-listing or not.
But.....it goes on...interesting
I always thought GFCI & GFI meant the same thing

Quote:
GFCI circuit breakers are designed to protect against ground faults of 4 to 6 mA or more, short-circuits, and overloads. Dual listed AFCI/GFCI circuit breakers are designed to protect against ground faults of 5 mA or more, short circuits, overloads, and arcing line-to-neutral faults. Dual listed AFCI/GFI circuit breakers are designed to protect against ground faults of 30 mA or more, short circuits, overloads and arcing line-to-neutral faults. A GFCI does not offer protection against arching line-to-neutral faults.
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Old 02-03-2010, 10:04 PM   #25
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GFCI breakers equivalent to GFCI outlets? Any code pitfalls?


Scuba Dave (Post #24)
"I always thought GFI/GFCI are the same thing"!
Indeed they are! One possible reason (just occurred to me while posting) is, that when you you speak of a GFI Breaker, you use that term (GFI) because the breaker --by definition-- deals with the entire circuit. Whereas, the receptacle interruptor does not, generally deal with the entire circuit, or, whose primary function is not to cut the circuit. Anyway, it's only an issue of Semantics. (My streaming thoughts. For whatever they're worth!)
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Old 02-03-2010, 10:13 PM   #26
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GFCI breakers equivalent to GFCI outlets? Any code pitfalls?


In answer to my own question...

It seems Cutler calls it a...

"AFCI with GFCI [breaker]"!

(And this is not a combination breaker - CH115AFGF or CH120AFGF)

This is on pages 30 and 31 on the following link.

On page 31 are combination breakers which are also not GFCI!

So it appears that the AFCI with GFCI breaker is not a combination breaker!

Are we all confused now?

See pages 30 and 31...
http://www.eaton.com/ecm/idcplg?IdcS...ILE&dID=151312
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Old 02-03-2010, 10:29 PM   #27
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GFCI breakers equivalent to GFCI outlets? Any code pitfalls?


P.S. And I assume they could make a combination AFCI with GFCI breaker.

And I guess it would be called just that...

Combination AFCI with GFCI breaker?

So...

AFCI
Combination AFCI
AFCI with GFCI
Combination AFCI with GFCI breaker
??
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Old 02-04-2010, 10:59 PM   #28
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GFCI breakers equivalent to GFCI outlets? Any code pitfalls?


Quote:
Originally Posted by thekctermite View Post
You can definitely replace devices or breakers without being required to re-wire the whole circuit. If the inspector requires otherwise, I'd be curious what his code justification is.
That's good to hear. This was starting to sound like a lot bigger project that I thought.

Piggybacking on my original question, how do I handle situations where I'm adding 14/2 (hot/neutral/ground) to the existing 14/2 with no ground wire? Specifically, what do I do with the ground wire in the romex I'm adding? Just shove it in the box, unconnected (as long as there's no upstream GFCI)? Do I connect it to metal j-boxes even though it doesn't actually reach ground at any point?

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