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-   -   gfci breaker tripping (http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/gfci-breaker-tripping-160236/)

fredy 10-15-2012 09:49 PM

gfci breaker tripping
 
hi.i have double pole 15 A gfci breaker and i wired 2 split oulets using 14x3 wire. as soon as plug anything the breaker trip.

mpoulton 10-15-2012 11:12 PM

I'd bet money that you wired the neutral from the receptacles to the neutral bar in the panel. It needs to go to the neutral terminal on the breaker, and the white wire from the breaker goes to the neutral bar in the panel.

ddawg16 10-16-2012 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mpoulton (Post 1031756)
I'd bet money that you wired the neutral from the receptacles to the neutral bar in the panel. It needs to go to the neutral terminal on the breaker, and the white wire from the breaker goes to the neutral bar in the panel.

yep....

Hey poulton....I thought that on the double GFIC, you couldn't do spit outlets like that since the load on one side would not be the same as the other? In other words...the double GFIC is for 240Vac applications only.

Enquiring minds want to know..........

Gac66610 10-16-2012 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ddawg16 (Post 1031819)
yep....

Hey poulton....I thought that on the double GFIC, you couldn't do spit outlets like that since the load on one side would not be the same as the other? In other words...the double GFIC is for 240Vac applications only.

Enquiring minds want to know..........

Will agree with this. MWBC will not work with double pole GFCI breakers.

The imbalanced load will trip every time, as ddawg described.

mpoulton 10-16-2012 11:52 AM

No, you definitely can do a MWBC with a double pole GFCI. Think about a 120/240V hot tub installation - they all have both 120V and 240V loads. Also, otherwise the neutral terminal on the breaker would be useless. Double pole GFCI's run all three conductors (both hots and neutral) through the current sensor. That way, the breaker analyzes the net current on all three wires, not just the two hots, to determine if there is "missing" current greater than 5mA. This circuit will definitely work if wired correctly.

The other possible reason for the tripping could be an inadvertent connection between neutral and ground somewhere on the circuit.

Gac66610 10-16-2012 12:31 PM

I don't (or haven't seen) a hot tub with 120v, in general they are 240v with a transformer to run low voltage, as in controls and lights.

MWBC will not work on GFCI double pole breaker.

I will agree that we disagree. :)

andrew79 10-16-2012 04:01 PM

That's funny because a two poke gfci breaker split is actually a code option up here for kitchens. I'll bet you a million dollars it will work. The breakers designed for mwbc operation.

stickboy1375 10-16-2012 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gac66610 (Post 1032021)
I don't (or haven't seen) a hot tub with 120v, in general they are 240v with a transformer to run low voltage, as in controls and lights.

MWBC will not work on GFCI double pole breaker.

I will agree that we disagree. :)

It will work, you just don't understand how they work.

stickboy1375 10-16-2012 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gac66610 (Post 1031824)
Will agree with this. MWBC will not work with double pole GFCI breakers.

The imbalanced load will trip every time, as ddawg described.

What imbalanced load? a double pole GFCI breaker will monitor the two hots and the neutral...

mpoulton 10-16-2012 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gac66610 (Post 1032021)
I don't (or haven't seen) a hot tub with 120v, in general they are 240v with a transformer to run low voltage, as in controls and lights.

MWBC will not work on GFCI double pole breaker.

I will agree that we disagree. :)

Then you haven't seen many hot tubs, and you have very little experience with double pole GFCI's. This isn't a matter of personal opinion to disagree about - it's fact. I've use several 2-pole GFCI's for 120/240V loads, and I have seen many more 2- and 3-pole GFCI's used for loads that include a neutral. It's hard to believe that you would think this if you've ever even handled one of the breakers. They have a neutral terminal right there on the breaker. That would be entirely useless if it couldn't operate with line-to-neutral loads. If you need more evidence, Siemens' product literature describes 2-pole GFCI breakers as "120/240V":
https://images.tradeservice.com/gjPi...AE02263_15.pdf

stickboy1375 10-16-2012 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mpoulton (Post 1032191)
They have a neutral terminal right there on the breaker. That would be entirely useless if it couldn't operate with line-to-neutral loads.

The GFCI electronics require a neutral connection to function, so even with 240v loads, the GFCI breaker requires a neutral connection. Just pointing this fact out.

Gac66610 10-16-2012 05:52 PM

Let me see if I understand this correctly.
A 2 pole GFCI breaker will work on a split receptacle with a shared neutral, as in the OP?
Sorry I caused a stir, but everything I theorized with GFCI this should not work.

I stand corrected.

And you are correct, I don't do many hot tubs (happily):thumbsup:

stickboy1375 10-16-2012 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gac66610 (Post 1032215)
Let me see if I understand this correctly.
A 2 pole GFCI breaker will work on a split receptacle with a shared neutral, as in the OP?
Sorry I caused a stir, but everything I theorized with GFCI this should not work.

I stand corrected.

And you are correct, I don't do many hot tubs (happily):thumbsup:

Not sure how you are looking at the scenerio, but the breaker will monitor both hots and neutral... This is why they make 2 pole afci breakers as well.

stickboy1375 10-16-2012 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gac66610 (Post 1032215)
Sorry I caused a stir, but everything I theorized with GFCI this should not work.



Why wouldn't it work? the GFCI protection is at the beginning of the circuit, so the current out, equals the current in... regardless.

http://www.iaei.org/magazine/wp-cont...g3-300x221.jpg

ddawg16 10-16-2012 08:47 PM

mpoulton is right....and sticky, good diagram.....

It had not occured to me that they would run more than 2 wires through the coil.....but....in reality...you could run a 100 wires through it....as long as the currents going one direction are equal to the currents coming back....no current induced in the toroid....

Which explains why it is so important for the neutral for that ckt to be connected to the neutral lug of the breaker.


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