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Florescent ballast, commercial or residential?

55K views 183 replies 14 participants last post by  Oso954 
#1 ·
Yesterday my kitchen light went out (4 - 4 foot, 32 watt T8 lamps about 5 years old). Tested - had power to fixture, no output from the ballast (dead ballast). Also had a cracked tombstone. Stopped at Home Depot this AM and picked up a ballast and a replacement tombstone. GE ballast, the only one they had for 4 T8 lamps. Got home replaced the shunted tombstone and the ballast, light works fine.

Now the hook:
Glanced at the bottom of the instruction sheet and read
"FOR COMMERCIAL USE ONLY, NOT FOR RESIDENTIAL (CONSUMER USE)

What is the difference and is there any problem with using that ballast in a residential fixture?
 
#165 ·
There is a wealth of information available here from professionals and experienced handymen. I myself have experience but there isn't a time I go on this board that I don't learn some additional tip or trick to help me with my projects, both home and work related. As long as I keep an open mind I will learn, and I greatly appreciate any advice I have been given. On the other side of that there will always be some posters...or should I say "posers" who think they know everything, brag about their knowledge, whether it be real or not. Those "posers" will never learn anything from this board, except that those of us that know what we are talking about tend to stick together and help those who need it. And some have a lot to learn and until they are willing to learn we tend to eventually ignore them until they actually become a congribution to this board......and I now step down off of my soap box.

Merry Christmas
 
#12 ·
That, and if your house ever burns down and is discovered that you had that installed, and it was an electrical short, or anything electrical what so ever that caused your house to catch on fire, even if it wasn't that ballast, your home owners wont cover any damages at all, because they'll have "No way of knowing" how mixing commercial and residential grade electrical fixtures may have impacted your homes electrical circuit(s).
Total BS. The insurance company cannot disallow the claim unless they can prove that the device caused the fire. There are plenty of competent professionals that can testify that that device in and of itself would not cause a safety hazard. I agree that insurance companies look for an excuse to deny a claim, but they do have to prove their point, sometimes in a court of law.
 
#14 ·
Total BS. The insurance company cannot disallow the claim unless they can prove that the device caused the fire. There are plenty of competent professionals that can testify that that device in and of itself would not cause a safety hazard. I agree that insurance companies look for an excuse to deny a claim, but they do have to prove their point, sometimes in a court of law.
That wouldn't be hard, do you know why? They can claim the Commercial Grade Appliance/fixture overloaded your residential system, causing xxx to overload.

Weakest part of a chain is what breaks. If the strongest part was too strong, it'll be a weaker component that fails, not the stronger one.

NEC also bans the use of Commercial Use Only products for Residential use. Meaning unless your area says otherwise, it's against building code just to even have it. which an insurance company can absolutely claim was a factor in a fault.

Feel free to call up and ask your own home insurance company and ask them if they would cover damages if you had commercial use only products installed in your home.

That's the best way to prove my point.
 
#23 ·
Well, while I have done a large amount of residential electrical work in the last 50 years, I want to make it clear that I am NOT a licensed electrician. If I run into something that I don't know , I don't hesitate to call one. They are always worth the cost.

What I am is a retired Deputy Director of a large Public Safety agency. (Police, Fire, and EMS). If you want an in depth discussion of fire inspectors and insurance companies, I AM your guy.

I stand by my statements.

Fire away.
 
#10 ·
I deal with lots of insurance companys ,especially on residential propertys for sale that are nailed by hack home inspectors that wouldnt know a plumbing or electrical code violation if you smacked them in the head with the book.
Most insurance inspectors ive seen walk through a property before theyll insure it will walk over to the front of service panel and want to know if its a 100a service,they dont even want to look inside of it.
Ive never seen one walk through a house and look at what kind of toilet or shower head you have,as long as the property meets local building codes theres not a whole lot they can legally say about the property being over built.
If I decide to run all the wiring in my house in threaded rigid conduit and run oversized #10 wire to every plug in my house with spec grade 20a plugs is my insurance company going to drop me? I doubt it very much :no::laughing:
 
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#15 ·
Ive got a meeting with one sometime next week once I finish fixing the current bunch of handy/hackman repairs on a customers rental property theyre trying to insure,Ill make sure to point out the cast iron waste/vent stack and sq-d 100a QO panel I installed.
Same unit I install in commercial buildings :thumbsup:
Did you know that many cities and insurance companys consider rental properties to be commercial properties whether theyre a house or building?:whistling2:
 
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#16 ·
Ive got a meeting with one sometime next week once I finish fixing the current bunch of handy/hackman repairs on a customers rental property theyre trying to insure,Ill make sure to point out the cast iron waste/vent stack and sq-d 100a QO panel I installed.
Same unit I install in commercial buildings :thumbsup:
Did you know that many cities and insurance companys consider rental properties to be commercial properties whether theyre a house or building?:whistling2:
If in your area it's zoned as commercial, can't see anything wrong with that if it's coded as commercial vs residential. But the topic was more regarding appliances/fixtures that are of commercial grade. And Cast Iron Waste/vent stacks and QO panels meet residential code. They are allowed for Residential Use, they even in the UPC as being good to go for residential. It just means they have a bigger/stronger hole to dump unpressurized water into.

That's awesome none the less.
 
#127 · (Edited)
Wha-wha-wha-what???????

How high would that be??
12'' from the ground. and then the bottom of a light switch box has to be no less than 43 1/2 inches from the ground.

EDIT

And anytime you run wiring through a stud, it cannot be within 1/3 of the outer edge of the stud, and cannot run a wire through a notch in a stud unless you put a 1/8'' thick metal plate on the stud to protect the wiring from any nails, screws, etc.
 
#142 ·
12'' is the minimum distance from the ground
I just want to point something out to you (a moment of weakness)......saying "ground" makes you sound silly.

Obviously it's not from the GROUND (dirt), but I think we all know you mean floor......but even at that.....

Finished floor?
Subfloor?
Floor Joists? (I know that's a stretch)

But really, any height that IS spec'd out is usually assumed to be from the finished floor height, unless otherwise specified.
 
#144 ·
I just want to point something out to you (a moment of weakness)......saying "ground" makes you sound silly.

Obviously it's not from the GROUND (dirt), but I think we all know you mean floor......but even at that.....

Finished floor?
Subfloor?
Floor Joists? (I know that's a stretch)

But really, any height that IS spec'd out is usually assumed to be from the finished floor height, unless otherwise specified.
:wallbash::wallbash::wallbash:.............
 
#152 ·
Want to know a really quick tip in doing the measurements? Get a chalk line, take a measurement at three to four points along the all, then snap the line within the range, but usually the architect will spec out the height they want on the outlets and light switches, regardless what the range is.

If the inspector comes in and finds that the height installed during rough in, is not the same on the blueprints, guess who gets to go around and pull all of those boxes. You the green coffee runner. Better be listening the next time.
 
#156 ·
Bigguy, trades can not just come up with changes and make them, especially on a commercial job site. It has to go through a approval process, which is usually no more than the architect, the engineer for that trade, and the GC having a quick chat over a cup of coffee, or a smoke break. Only time that I know of that trades just do what they want, is in a resi build, and at most, the home barely stands up by itself after most builders get done trying to get out of there as quick as possible. Wait until you get to work on a house that is older, and everyone and their brother, and cousin Bubba & other cousin Billy-bob have done everything that they can to practically make the place barely safe structurally, or conditionally safe with electric or mechanicals.

When you have done that, then come back and tell everyone how bad you have it. You have not seen bad, until you get handed a job, that was never done correct from the beginning, or you have a contractor come through, and are told to pull one circuit, due to it is no longer being used, and in turn cut another circuit that is still in use, and you have to stand on the top of a twenty foot ladder splicing a fifty pair communication line into a junction box. Or even better, laying on your back in mud under a home or manufactured home, fixing someone else's problems, or pulling new plumbing, electric, etc.. Even better, going into a attic in the middle of Summer, and the attic is over 130 degrees, to redo a bunch of chewed through electrical wiring.

We all will be here waiting to hear from you.
 
#160 · (Edited)
Everything you just listed outside of climing the 25ft latter (because I pay attention when doing electrical) and going into a 130 degree attic I've done.

If fix F* ups quite a bit, even in class because several particular classmates don't know wth they are doing, I'm usually fixing their screw ups.

Dealing with older homes, I've done enough of it as it is, I've even built a home from the very foundation to the complete structure. I have helped in the repair of 30-60 year old residential structures, and have aided in the repair and maintenance of 30-60 year old commercial structures. My entire training course is repairing and maintaining pre existing systems and structures, to include bringing them to code when required. It is not some BS HS garbage. I am not in High School, I am not in some BS goody boy school. I am in a Federal Funded Training Program and learn to do this kind of work.

In fact, of the crap you listed, I've done all of that but 2 items on your list, TO also add to crawling underneath a house flooded with 11 degree water from rain coming into the crawl space in the middle of november to pull pipes through the subfloor. To include digging 2ft wide 5 1/2 deep trenches to connect a house to its sewer main.

I have had to replace siding, caulking, remodeling an entire houses basement, and back home on break spending most of break fixing wannabe DIY Handymen work because they can't mentally comprehend the difference between a 2x4 and a 2x6 and can't mentally comprehend why you have to have the studs vertically level, and why you can't put 2x4s 24'' apart when its required to be 16 for 2x4s.

I've already dealt with and have had to fix enough wannabe handymen's crap. Thank you very much.

Regarding J,

It actually is true. At least in WASHINGTON, all houses built after ADA rulings, have to conform to ADA, to include counters, etc. etc. Same with Commercial Buildings even. The brand new bill and millenda gates foundation building? Everything in it is ADA complient, because it's a commercial building.

All Commercial Buildings have had to be reorgenized, modified, etc. to conform to ADA, newer buildings have to be build to ADA specs.

Regarding Tradesmen, they absolutely can make modifications on the spot if it needs to be done. In their case it's a phone call away, describe what's going on, 99 out of 100 times it'll be approved, they then go with it. And mark changes on the blue prints.

Engineers and Architects, deal largely with the shape/design of the structure. Individual Mechanical and Electrical systems, are outlined, which can be modified by a Licensed Electrician/Plumber/HVAC-R Tech as needed to conform to codes. They do not rush anything.

Project Supervisors and/or the General Foreman, can make changes on the fly, because they licensed to do it on the job site. They mark and list changes and modifications, and put them in notes for the blueprints, and then redraw the blueprints later to reflect the changes they made. SO long as the don't comprimise design/shape of the building and its structural integrity. I do not know how it is in your state, but in WA, they can, and do do this.
 
#2 ·
Class A is for "commercial" EMI requirements
Class B is the "Consumer" EMI requirements

Personally, I wouldn't worry for a second. I run the same ballasts in my shop lights.

This is why it's considered a "Class A" non-cosumer device:

["RF lighting devices produce light by using RF energy to stimulate gases contained inside a lamp. In 1985, the Commission classified RF lighting devices as Part 18 Industrial, Scientific, and Medical (ISM) equipment and adopted rules to control the harmful interference to radio communications services from such devices.1 The current Part 18 rules for RF lighting devices specify AC power line-conducted emissions limits between 450 kHz and 30 MHz and radiated emissions limits between 30 MHz and 1 GHz. Part 18 specifies different emissions limits for consumer and non-consumer RF lighting equipment. Consumer ISM equipment is equipment that is used or intended to be used by the general public in a residential environment.2 Non-consumer ISM equipment is equipment that is used in commercial and industrial environments."]

Above from...
http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Engineeri...9/fcc99135.pdf
 
#4 ·
...RF lighting devices produce light by using RF energy to stimulate gases contained inside a lamp....
Basically, these new "electronic" ballasts are a transmitter of radio waves. They can and will cause radio interference in some receivers.

I'm not sure that the extra EMF lurking about is worth the energy savings of the electronic ballasts, however.
 
#5 · (Edited)
Haven't read any posts yet.

But to be honest, only diff is that it emits radio waves. That, and if your house ever burns down and is discovered that you had that installed, and it was an electrical short, or anything electrical what so ever that caused your house to catch on fire, even if it wasn't that ballast, your home owners wont cover any damages at all, because they'll have "No way of knowing" how mixing commercial and residential grade electrical fixtures may have impacted your homes electrical circuit(s).

As far as funciton, not much to worry about, as far as insurance goes, just don't have an electrical fire, ever. And you should be good. That, and don't have any fires in your kitchen, because if that ballast blows from the gases etc. that's HAZMAT, which could void your home owners insurance as well, because you put a commercial grade ballast in a residential environment.

Other than that, nothing to worry about TBH. (aside from whether or not it voids your home owners insurance having it connected)
 
#6 ·
...if your house ever burns down and is discovered that you had that installed, and it was an electrical short, or anything electrical what so ever that caused your house to catch on fire, even if it wasn't that ballast, your home owners wont cover any damages at all, because they'll have "No way of knowing" how mixing commercial and residential grade electrical fixtures may have impacted your homes electrical circuit(s). ...
While that statement may sound legitimate, in practice I have never heard of an instance where that was actually enforced.
 
#17 ·
That wouldn't be hard, do you know why? They can claim the Commercial Grade Appliance/fixture overloaded your residential system, causing xxx to overload.
That would be very hard, because the insurance company must prove that the device caused the problem. What an uninformed insurance company could do, if they somehow discovered the commercial ballast, is they could cancel your policy because it doesn't comply with a clause in their policy. That is not likely because they do not want to loose a customer. What they could NOT do is deny the claim without proving that the device caused the fire.
 
#45 ·
Because you have so much experiance hooking it up to those 240v gas water heaters! :brows::brows::sleep1::sleep1:
Around here we cant use it because of issues with chlorine,what say you oh great one of maintenance? :whistling2:
 
#110 ·
Dude, I don't know of ANY homes that have any higher than 30 amps..... That includes the $500,000 house my uncle bought years back....
So, where you live, for $500,000 you don't even get a stove to cook on?????:blink::rolleyes:
Ya know...because that would (or could) have a 50A breaker feeding it....and needless to say, that is more than 30A.

Must suck to sit in the living room floor in your $500,000 home and cook on a camp stove.
 
#111 ·
So, where you live, for $500,000 you don't even get a stove to cook on?????:blink::rolleyes:
Ya know...because that would (or could) have a 50A breaker feeding it....and needless to say, that is more than 30A.

Must suck to sit in the living room floor in your $500,000 home and cook on a camp stove.
50amps would be fore a 240 volt, his stove was 120... Only drew 15 amps... 50 amps would be insane... There is no way he'd be able to power that. Nothing he had in his house went above 30a.
 
#121 ·
It think it was gas. he had a gas water heater, too.

He also had gas heaters. (and propane heaters as auxilleries
OK, well...ummm...out in the REST of the world we have electric stoves available to us....and they DO draw (the INSANE amount of) 50 amps...and they draw it off of a 200 amp :eek: main service.....and yes it's 240 volts, needless to say.
 
#126 ·
Well in France we do also have 240 volt range or stove or hob ( whatever you call it ) that do draw 40 amp easy and also to really compound it we can reconferage it to triphase to run on 415 volts without issue.

Note it is normal to see alot of place which if it is on monophase supply useally limited to either 80 or 160 amp supply.

Merci,
Marc
 
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