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Old 12-24-2011, 09:49 PM   #31
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Florescent ballast, commercial or residential?


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Only water mains I've done work with was a 1'' for a new construction home.

It's not a matter of how much power they draw, it's how much that single circuit is being stressed. Commercial Water Heaters have a much higher wattage than a single residential water heater. A typical home with 110 and 220v circuits, most of the time aren't rated for commercial water heaters. Residential Water Heaters also function differently from commercial. Commercial powers up both elements at the same time, while residential alternates. A typical heating element for a Residental water heater, will be approx 1500 watts, with typical 210-240 volts, which if at 220 that's 6.8 amps, running both at the same time that takes it up to 17.6amps on its own, not including the rest of the water heater to operate, which a typical residential water heater will run anywhere from 3,000 watts to 5,000 watts, while a typical commercial water heater can be as high as 15,000 watts.

A commercial water heater, would overload a homes breaker. Just like a commercial range oven would. A Commercial Walk in Freezer/Refrigerator, etc.

Apples and oranges.

That said, I know incandessent lightbulbs were HAZMAT, but never knew they had mercury in them. I know the gases they have in them are toxic. But didn't know it was Mercury.
Last time I looked a 10 gauge wire was rated for the same load whether it was residential or commercial,a single phase 200amp service in a commercial building is rated for the same loads as a 200amp residential service.
a 3 phase piece of equipment for a commercial building draws less power/more efficient than a single phase piece of equipment of same size,but most houses in the US dont have 3 phase power yet anyway it is coming though. (hows that for apples and oranges for ya? )
there are plenty of homes out there with commercial kitchens in them,and commercial water heaters as well.
So before you start giving lessons might i suggest you go down to the local trade school and sign up for some classes,by the way im looking through my wallet and i see a state issued electrical contractors license/a city issued master electricians license/5 differant city issued plumbers licenses/a city issued sewer layers license/a dept of enviromental quality issued master septic tank installers license/2 hvac contractor licenses/an epa universal certification dated 2/94/an ase refrig cert.........

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Old 12-24-2011, 09:51 PM   #32
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Florescent ballast, commercial or residential?


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I got even better, want to call up your home owners insurance company and ask what they say if you use commercial use only light fixtures in your home?
I did and guess what, my State Farm Insurance agent only stated that as long as I knew what I was doing, and was not holding my beer in one hand, and standing on a aluminum ladder while working on it energized, they were fine with it.
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Old 12-24-2011, 09:51 PM   #33
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Florescent ballast, commercial or residential?


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That wouldn't be hard, do you know why? They can claim the Commercial Grade Appliance/fixture overloaded your residential system, causing xxx to overload.

Weakest part of a chain is what breaks. If the strongest part was too strong, it'll be a weaker component that fails, not the stronger one.

NEC also bans the use of Commercial Use Only products for Residential use. Meaning unless your area says otherwise, it's against building code just to even have it. which an insurance company can absolutely claim was a factor in a fault.

Feel free to call up and ask your own home insurance company and ask them if they would cover damages if you had commercial use only products installed in your home.

That's the best way to prove my point.
Really, and what part of the NEC would that be in?
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Old 12-24-2011, 09:52 PM   #34
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Florescent ballast, commercial or residential?


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Nah, at most I should have it tomorrow. the one with the code book is eating dinner with his family.

Blah, got my light bulbs screwed up.

I ment the fluarescents. Also black lights, they all have to be recycled in my area. Unless it's a normal 40 or 60watt lightbulb you'd put into your cieling light, it has to be recycled. (even regular fluerescents have to be recycled in my area)
He got the code book and you got stuck with the broom tonight huh? eems like a fair trade off!
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Old 12-24-2011, 10:00 PM   #35
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Florescent ballast, commercial or residential?


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1. If it's allowed per code to have 2 water heaters, most likely on two totally different circuits, then its per code.

2. I can't say I've ever seen a 1/2'' water service.... If you're talking about DWV, that's usually 3'' with a reducer that goes from 3'' to 4''. That said, if it's to code for your area than its to code.

3. Metal pop ups for a sink, are residential, and commercial grade. Fail to see the point you're trying to make?

4. L Copper was used for Residential application for a very long time. Depends how long ago it was put in vs when it became out of code.

5. WHy would you have mercury in your light bulbs?

Also, to add to the water ordeal, if you're talking about the water main, you have two sides of it. The cities/utility side, and then the residential/home owners side or commercial entitites side. They don't have to match, provided each side is appropriate for their own guidelines, policies, and codes.

EDIT. Also regarding the Copper, most copper in newer construction is being made of PEX, with only 40'' total of copper being used in a typical residential new construction. (nipples for the sinks, washer machine, and the piping for the cross to the showers/bathtubs, and 18 inches from the water heater connections, rest is all PEX. but more copper tubing is used if there are more shower stalls etc. But "typical" is about 40''-60'' for a Duplex, at least in my area per code, that is all the copper that is needed. Rest is all PEX and PVC with some ABS)
There is no code that states whether you can or can not use 2 water heaters. A lot of homes have two, due to they may have garden tubs, or large families, and it is easier to install two 40 gallon water heaters than install a 80 gallon and wait forever for recovery.

Yes, there is 1/2" water service, especially in trailers. Majority of the homes out there have 4" dwv, and yes you would use reducers to change down to 3" or 3 1/2", especially for a toilet.

And no, majority of copper out there is not PEX being used. It is just that PEX is a lot easier to work with, and does not need a lot of fittings for runs. But it does take someone knowing how to work with it, to do the job properly.

For #5, CFL's, TV sets, computers, Tube Florescent, etc all use Mercury. You may want to look into that one. Manufacturers have been using Mercury in light bulbs, especially florescent for a very long time.
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Old 12-24-2011, 10:05 PM   #36
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Florescent ballast, commercial or residential?


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Originally Posted by BigGuy01 View Post
Only water mains I've done work with was a 1'' for a new construction home.

It's not a matter of how much power they draw, it's how much that single circuit is being stressed. Commercial Water Heaters have a much higher wattage than a single residential water heater. A typical home with 110 and 220v circuits, most of the time aren't rated for commercial water heaters. Residential Water Heaters also function differently from commercial. Commercial powers up both elements at the same time, while residential alternates. A typical heating element for a Residental water heater, will be approx 1500 watts, with typical 210-240 volts, which if at 220 that's 6.8 amps, running both at the same time that takes it up to 17.6amps on its own, not including the rest of the water heater to operate, which a typical residential water heater will run anywhere from 3,000 watts to 5,000 watts, while a typical commercial water heater can be as high as 15,000 watts.

A commercial water heater, would overload a homes breaker. Just like a commercial range oven would. A Commercial Walk in Freezer/Refrigerator, etc.

Apples and oranges.

That said, I know incandessent lightbulbs were HAZMAT, but never knew they had mercury in them. I know the gases they have in them are toxic. But didn't know it was Mercury.
incandescent light bulbs are not Hazmat, and what gases are there in light bulbs? They have a vacuum in them.

Stress on the electrical system. Where are you coming up with this? A commercial water heater is really no different in a residential, just that for some they mark the price up higher, because of the term "Commercial Use". But yes, the parts are a lot tougher on commercial grade water heaters, is why a lot of builders will use them in residential installs, vs cheap off the shelf stuff at Lowe's, Home Depot, Ace Hardware, etc.
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Old 12-24-2011, 10:11 PM   #37
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Florescent ballast, commercial or residential?


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Really. My home has all commercial and residential grade outlets, gfci's, wall switches in it. Does that void my insurance? And really, commercial grade water heaters put more stress on a resi system, along with sucking more power. I want to see the documents that back that up.
Fixed it.

And sure

http://www.rheem.com/products/commer...cial_electric/

Feel free to compare.

http://www.rheem.com/products/tank_w...water_heaters/

For more accurate comparisons, we'll use the same manufacturer. Feel free to browse them, and notice how commercial water heaters can go as high as 36,000 Watts
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Old 12-24-2011, 10:12 PM   #38
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Florescent ballast, commercial or residential?


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Originally Posted by BigGuy01 View Post
1. If it's allowed per code to have 2 water heaters, most likely on two totally different circuits, then its per code.

2. I can't say I've ever seen a 1/2'' water service.... If you're talking about DWV, that's usually 3'' with a reducer that goes from 3'' to 4''. That said, if it's to code for your area than its to code.

3. Metal pop ups for a sink, are residential, and commercial grade. Fail to see the point you're trying to make?

4. L Copper was used for Residential application for a very long time. Depends how long ago it was put in vs when it became out of code.

5. WHy would you have mercury in your light bulbs?

Also, to add to the water ordeal, if you're talking about the water main, you have two sides of it. The cities/utility side, and then the residential/home owners side or commercial entitites side. They don't have to match, provided each side is appropriate for their own guidelines, policies, and codes.

EDIT. Also regarding the Copper, most copper in newer construction is being made of PEX, with only 40'' total of copper being used in a typical residential new construction. (nipples for the sinks, washer machine, and the piping for the cross to the showers/bathtubs, and 18 inches from the water heater connections, rest is all PEX. but more copper tubing is used if there are more shower stalls etc. But "typical" is about 40''-60'' for a Duplex, at least in my area per code, that is all the copper that is needed. Rest is all PEX and PVC with some ABS)
Do you have any real skills besides emptying the trash cans,sweeping the floors and waxing your bosses truck?
I just looked at your other post about 240v to a gas water heater,you sir are a piece of work!
keep up the good work,im bored and can use the entertainment!
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Old 12-24-2011, 10:15 PM   #39
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Florescent ballast, commercial or residential?


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Fixed it.

And sure

http://www.rheem.com/products/commer...cial_electric/

Feel free to compare.

http://www.rheem.com/products/tank_w...water_heaters/

For more accurate comparisons, we'll use the same manufacturer. Feel free to browse them, and notice how commercial water heaters can go as high as 36,000 Watts
Hey numbnuts how about comparing water heaters with the same output!
wow my 175a hobart wirewelder draws more power than a 125a wirewelder,oh wait its a bigger unit!
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Old 12-24-2011, 10:16 PM   #40
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Florescent ballast, commercial or residential?


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There is no code that states whether you can or can not use 2 water heaters. A lot of homes have two, due to they may have garden tubs, or large families, and it is easier to install two 40 gallon water heaters than install a 80 gallon and wait forever for recovery.

Yes, there is 1/2" water service, especially in trailers. Majority of the homes out there have 4" dwv, and yes you would use reducers to change down to 3" or 3 1/2", especially for a toilet.

And no, majority of copper out there is not PEX being used. It is just that PEX is a lot easier to work with, and does not need a lot of fittings for runs. But it does take someone knowing how to work with it, to do the job properly.

For #5, CFL's, TV sets, computers, Tube Florescent, etc all use Mercury. You may want to look into that one. Manufacturers have been using Mercury in light bulbs, especially florescent for a very long time.

I ment to say majority of copper used is replaced with PEX because it is much cheaper, and can hold to the same limits of copper for the purpose of drinking water and water used for showering, etc.

That said, LCD and Plasma Screen TVs do nto use mercury. Only the older "Box" TVs use Mercury. Same goes for Computer Monitors, etc. The newer ones use plasma, or Crystals. Not mercury.

Also, PEX is actually very easy to work with. Many ways to put fittings on it, with the fastest and easiest way is putting a PEX ring on the edge of PEX tubing, using a special tool to expand the end, and then puting the fitting in place, hold it steady for 2 mins or so, and the PEX will conform to the tube/fitting, creating an easy, instant water-tight seal. Very quick, easy, and cheap. For both commercial and residential use.

Personally I love PEX. It makes life incredibly easier.
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Old 12-24-2011, 10:17 PM   #41
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Florescent ballast, commercial or residential?


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Fixed it.

And sure

http://www.rheem.com/products/commer...cial_electric/

Feel free to compare.

http://www.rheem.com/products/tank_w...water_heaters/

For more accurate comparisons, we'll use the same manufacturer. Feel free to browse them, and notice how commercial water heaters can go as high as 36,000 Watts
Incorrect on the outlets etc. It is all commercial grade switches, outlets, gfci's in my home. How do I know, it is because I installed them myself. And as for the two water heaters, what is your point, small offices that do not have high demand can use residential type water heaters. The heavier demand types, you see in places with a lot of foot traffic, and also in homes that want fast recovery. There is no code stating which you can and can not use.
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Old 12-24-2011, 10:17 PM   #42
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Florescent ballast, commercial or residential?


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Hey numbnuts how about comparing water heaters with the same output!
wow my 175a hobart wirewelder draws more power than a 125a wirewelder,oh wait its a bigger unit!
You have that ability in the links provided to compare the same outputs.
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Old 12-24-2011, 10:17 PM   #43
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Florescent ballast, commercial or residential?


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Fixed it.
And sure
http://www.rheem.com/products/commer...cial_electric/
Feel free to compare.
http://www.rheem.com/products/tank_w...water_heaters/
For more accurate comparisons, we'll use the same manufacturer. Feel free to browse them, and notice how commercial water heaters can go as high as 36,000 Watts
There's no problem installing the 36kw water heater in a residential application as long as the proper sized wiring and breakers are used! Obviously the same ones used for in a normal residential water heater couldn't be used but if they are correctly sized there isn't a problem which any code book or AHJ will support!

Last edited by Msradell; 12-24-2011 at 10:20 PM.
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Old 12-24-2011, 10:20 PM   #44
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Florescent ballast, commercial or residential?


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Incorrect on the outlets etc. It is all commercial grade switches, outlets, gfci's in my home. How do I know, it is because I installed them myself. And as for the two water heaters, what is your point, small offices that do not have high demand can use residential type water heaters. The heavier demand types, you see in places with a lot of foot traffic, and also in homes that want fast recovery. There is no code stating which you can and can not use.
Electrical Outlets, switches, and GFCIs are rated for both commercial and residential. Pull one out and read it. They are designed to the same specs and are universal. We don't live in Europe bud.... Commercial and Residential Light Switches and outlets are the same.

Just like how you use the same 4 prong outlet to plug in your dryer as a machine shop will use to plug in their drill press or table saw etc. They are engineered to be universal for both Residential and Commercial Application.
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Old 12-24-2011, 10:20 PM   #45
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Florescent ballast, commercial or residential?


Because you have so much experiance hooking it up to those 240v gas water heaters!
Around here we cant use it because of issues with chlorine,what say you oh great one of maintenance?

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