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Old 12-24-2011, 08:50 PM   #16
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Florescent ballast, commercial or residential?


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Ive got a meeting with one sometime next week once I finish fixing the current bunch of handy/hackman repairs on a customers rental property theyre trying to insure,Ill make sure to point out the cast iron waste/vent stack and sq-d 100a QO panel I installed.
Same unit I install in commercial buildings
Did you know that many cities and insurance companys consider rental properties to be commercial properties whether theyre a house or building?
If in your area it's zoned as commercial, can't see anything wrong with that if it's coded as commercial vs residential. But the topic was more regarding appliances/fixtures that are of commercial grade. And Cast Iron Waste/vent stacks and QO panels meet residential code. They are allowed for Residential Use, they even in the UPC as being good to go for residential. It just means they have a bigger/stronger hole to dump unpressurized water into.

That's awesome none the less.

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Old 12-24-2011, 08:54 PM   #17
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Florescent ballast, commercial or residential?


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That wouldn't be hard, do you know why? They can claim the Commercial Grade Appliance/fixture overloaded your residential system, causing xxx to overload.

That would be very hard, because the insurance company must prove that the device caused the problem. What an uninformed insurance company could do, if they somehow discovered the commercial ballast, is they could cancel your policy because it doesn't comply with a clause in their policy. That is not likely because they do not want to loose a customer. What they could NOT do is deny the claim without proving that the device caused the fire.
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Old 12-24-2011, 08:57 PM   #18
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Florescent ballast, commercial or residential?


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That wouldn't be hard, do you know why? They can claim the Commercial Grade Appliance/fixture overloaded your residential system, causing xxx to overload.

Weakest part of a chain is what breaks. If the strongest part was too strong, it'll be a weaker component that fails, not the stronger one.

NEC also bans the use of Commercial Use Only products for Residential use. Meaning unless your area says otherwise, it's against building code just to even have it. which an insurance company can absolutely claim was a factor in a fault.

Feel free to call up and ask your own home insurance company and ask them if they would cover damages if you had commercial use only products installed in your home.

That's the best way to prove my point.
So does a commercial water heater use more energy than 2 residential water heaters run in series or parallel with each other?
Lots of houses with 2 water heaters out there,better tell them their insurance is void.
Lots of houses out there with 1" water services ,putting extra load on all those old sewers that are used to 1/2" water service,there goes your insurance!
Lots of houses out there with metal pop-ups under sink,commercial grade stuff not plastic like residential!
Oh crap I think theres some L copper in my plumbing,not m copper like residential there goes my insurance!
Uh oh,mercury in light bulbs better get haz mat ! there goes everybodys insurance!
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Old 12-24-2011, 09:00 PM   #19
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Florescent ballast, commercial or residential?


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That would be very hard, because the insurance company must prove that the device caused the problem. What an uninformed insurance company could do, if they somehow discovered the commercial ballast, is they could cancel your policy because it doesn't comply with a clause in their policy. That is not likely because they do not want to loose a customer. What they could NOT do is deny the claim without proving that the device caused the fire.
Shelling out $200k+ for a new home, or lose $3k a year for losing a customer, which is the bigger loss?

And FYI, I'll be waiting for you to call your home owners insurance company, and will be waiting for the answer.
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Old 12-24-2011, 09:02 PM   #20
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Florescent ballast, commercial or residential?


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If in your area it's zoned as commercial, can't see anything wrong with that if it's coded as commercial vs residential. But the topic was more regarding appliances/fixtures that are of commercial grade. And Cast Iron Waste/vent stacks and QO panels meet residential code. They are allowed for Residential Use, they even in the UPC as being good to go for residential. It just means they have a bigger/stronger hole to dump unpressurized water into.

That's awesome none the less.
bigger stronger hole?
i didnt realize there was differance in the inside diameter of cast iron pipe versus pvc!
after 30 years in the trades i thought it was the wall thickness/o.d that was differant!
I really must get a maintenance job so I can learn up on these things!
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Old 12-24-2011, 09:05 PM   #21
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So does a commercial water heater use more energy than 2 residential water heaters run in series or parallel with each other?
Lots of houses with 2 water heaters out there,better tell them their insurance is void.
Lots of houses out there with 1" water services ,putting extra load on all those old sewers that are used to 1/2" water service,there goes your insurance!
Lots of houses out there with metal pop-ups under sink,commercial grade stuff not plastic like residential!
Oh crap I think theres some L copper in my plumbing,not m copper like residential there goes my insurance!
Uh oh,mercury in light bulbs better get haz mat ! there goes everybodys insurance!
1. If it's allowed per code to have 2 water heaters, most likely on two totally different circuits, then its per code.

2. I can't say I've ever seen a 1/2'' water service.... If you're talking about DWV, that's usually 3'' with a reducer that goes from 3'' to 4''. That said, if it's to code for your area than its to code.

3. Metal pop ups for a sink, are residential, and commercial grade. Fail to see the point you're trying to make?

4. L Copper was used for Residential application for a very long time. Depends how long ago it was put in vs when it became out of code.

5. WHy would you have mercury in your light bulbs?

Also, to add to the water ordeal, if you're talking about the water main, you have two sides of it. The cities/utility side, and then the residential/home owners side or commercial entitites side. They don't have to match, provided each side is appropriate for their own guidelines, policies, and codes.

EDIT. Also regarding the Copper, most copper in newer construction is being made of PEX, with only 40'' total of copper being used in a typical residential new construction. (nipples for the sinks, washer machine, and the piping for the cross to the showers/bathtubs, and 18 inches from the water heater connections, rest is all PEX. but more copper tubing is used if there are more shower stalls etc. But "typical" is about 40''-60'' for a Duplex, at least in my area per code, that is all the copper that is needed. Rest is all PEX and PVC with some ABS)

Last edited by BigGuy01; 12-24-2011 at 09:14 PM.
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Old 12-24-2011, 09:06 PM   #22
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Florescent ballast, commercial or residential?


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bigger stronger hole?
i didnt realize there was differance in the inside diameter of cast iron pipe versus pvc!
after 30 years in the trades i thought it was the wall thickness/o.d that was differant!
I really must get a maintenance job so I can learn up on these things!
OD is what I was refering too, I know they are measured via ID, but was referring to it being more reinforced.
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Old 12-24-2011, 09:10 PM   #23
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Florescent ballast, commercial or residential?


Well, while I have done a large amount of residential electrical work in the last 50 years, I want to make it clear that I am NOT a licensed electrician. If I run into something that I don't know , I don't hesitate to call one. They are always worth the cost.

What I am is a retired Deputy Director of a large Public Safety agency. (Police, Fire, and EMS). If you want an in depth discussion of fire inspectors and insurance companies, I AM your guy.

I stand by my statements.

Fire away.
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Old 12-24-2011, 09:18 PM   #24
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Florescent ballast, commercial or residential?


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1. If it's allowed per code to have 2 water heaters, most likely on two totally different circuits, then its per code.

2. I can't say I've ever seen a 1/2'' water service.... If you're talking about DWV, that's usually 3'' with a reducer that goes from 3'' to 4''. That said, if it's to code for your area than its to code.

3. Metal pop ups for a sink, are residential, and commercial grade. Fail to see the point you're trying to make?

4. L Copper was used for Residential application for a very long time. Depends how long ago it was put in vs when it became out of code.

5. WHy would you have mercury in your light bulbs?
If you ever spent any time in the actual plumbing trade im sure you would have seen a 1/2" water service at some point in your career.
metal pop ups are required by code in commercial buildings around here,not residential.
If you have 2 electric water heaters in a house i sure as hell hope theyre on 2 seperate circuits,very hard to run them on 1!
So youre saying the residential electric water heaters draw less of a load than 1 commercial unit?
how about 2 residential gas water heaters do they use less gas than 1 commercial gas water heater?
Type m copper has been code for residential in these parts for years,Type L is code for commercial use.
Have you ever seen a compact fl bulb,you know the ones mandated by the epa now? yeah thats mercury in those bulbs!
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Old 12-24-2011, 09:19 PM   #25
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Florescent ballast, commercial or residential?


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NEC also bans the use of Commercial Use Only products for Residential use. Meaning unless your area says otherwise, it's against building code just to even have it. which an insurance company can absolutely claim was a factor in a fault.
If you're going to state NEC or any other code presents something from being done please cite chapter and verse! Where in the NEC is there any reference preventing you from using commercial products in a residential situation?
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Old 12-24-2011, 09:28 PM   #26
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Florescent ballast, commercial or residential?


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If you ever spent any time in the actual plumbing trade im sure you would have seen a 1/2" water service at some point in your career.
metal pop ups are required by code in commercial buildings around here,not residential.
If you have 2 electric water heaters in a house i sure as hell hope theyre on 2 seperate circuits,very hard to run them on 1!
So youre saying the residential electric water heaters draw less of a load than 1 commercial unit?
how about 2 residential gas water heaters do they use less gas than 1 commercial gas water heater?
Type m copper has been code for residential in these parts for years,Type L is code for commercial use.
Have you ever seen a compact fl bulb,you know the ones mandated by the epa now? yeah thats mercury in those bulbs!
Only water mains I've done work with was a 1'' for a new construction home.

It's not a matter of how much power they draw, it's how much that single circuit is being stressed. Commercial Water Heaters have a much higher wattage than a single residential water heater. A typical home with 110 and 220v circuits, most of the time aren't rated for commercial water heaters. Residential Water Heaters also function differently from commercial. Commercial powers up both elements at the same time, while residential alternates. A typical heating element for a Residental water heater, will be approx 1500 watts, with typical 210-240 volts, which if at 220 that's 6.8 amps, running both at the same time that takes it up to 17.6amps on its own, not including the rest of the water heater to operate, which a typical residential water heater will run anywhere from 3,000 watts to 5,000 watts, while a typical commercial water heater can be as high as 15,000 watts.

A commercial water heater, would overload a homes breaker. Just like a commercial range oven would. A Commercial Walk in Freezer/Refrigerator, etc.

Apples and oranges.

That said, I know incandessent lightbulbs were HAZMAT, but never knew they had mercury in them. I know the gases they have in them are toxic. But didn't know it was Mercury.
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Old 12-24-2011, 09:29 PM   #27
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If you're going to state NEC or any other code presents something from being done please cite chapter and verse! Where in the NEC is there any reference preventing you from using commercial products in a residential situation?
Waiting on the Paragraph and Line, have to wait for someone to get back to me with it.
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Old 12-24-2011, 09:32 PM   #28
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Florescent ballast, commercial or residential?


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That said, I know incandessent lightbulbs were HAZMAT, but never knew they had mercury in them. I know the gases they have in them are toxic. But didn't know it was Mercury.
Where are you that incandessent bulbs are hazardous waste? I've never seen at any place. Many places consider fluorescent lights (tubes or CFL) to be a hazardous waste but not incandessent.
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Waiting on the Paragraph and Line, have to wait for someone to get back to me with it.
You're going to be waiting a long time.
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Old 12-24-2011, 09:36 PM   #29
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Where are you that incandessent bulbs are hazardous waste? I've never seen at any place. Many places consider fluorescent lights (tubes or CFL) to be a hazardous waste but not incandessent.

You're going to be waiting a long time.
Nah, at most I should have it tomorrow. the one with the code book is eating dinner with his family.

Blah, got my light bulbs screwed up.

I ment the fluarescents. Also black lights, they all have to be recycled in my area. Unless it's a normal 40 or 60watt lightbulb you'd put into your cieling light, it has to be recycled. (even regular fluerescents have to be recycled in my area)
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Old 12-24-2011, 09:48 PM   #30
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Florescent ballast, commercial or residential?


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But quite frankly, there are a lot of home insurance company's that will not cover with commercial grade.

Can't do commercial grade water heater, because it sucks in too much power. VOids home owners because they can say the power it sucks up put too much strain on your electrical system.

Commercial grade equipment is designed for mass use, mass operation, etc. Definitely higher quality than residential products, but they put greater demand on a residential system that insurance company's can claim caused such and such issues.

It's all about liability and what an insurance company can claim. If it was rated for both residential, and commercial (which would be ideal for home DIYers to use, are products graded for both Residential, and Commercial) I wouldn't see anything wrong at all.

But again, I'm just looking at it from a liability perspective. Functionally it's totally fine and dandy, just worth thinking about insurance side of things, and what a company would say if they found products in a home that specifically state "Commercial Use Only".
Really. My home has all commercial grade outlets, gfci's, wall switches in it. Does that void my insurance? And really, commercial grade water heaters put more stress on a resi system, along with sucking more power. I want to see the documents that back that up.

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