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Old 01-06-2014, 01:26 PM   #1
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Feed wire sizing and Gnd/Bond Stuff


The Basement Remodel Project Electrical Work includes adding a 200A outside panel which will feed the garage on a 2p60; the two AC condensers on a 2p20 for each; the outside receptacles 1p20; and have a spare 1p slot.

The 200A main panel will then be a SUB panel and be relocated about 15 feet away through a finished space to an interior wall.

Service Details:
1) POCO to 200A Meter Underground Feed with (whatever).
2) METER to 3R 8 Space Panel with 200A Main Breaker
(in Conduit and right next to the meter)
3) 3R Panel to Inside Panel with 200A Main Breaker
(the 3R has feed through lugs)

I can pull this feed in conduit...
but romex of some sort would be much easier.

4) Grounding is two rods with bare #6 at/to the meter.
5) Bonding is bare #6 on the copper water pipe near the panel.

Water Meter is 200 feet away at the street.
Water Service Entry valve is 70 feet across the basement..

Questions:
2) Use: # _____________ (3W)
3) Use: # _____________ (4W)
4) Use: # _____________
and run it from _______ to ________
5) Use: # _____________
and run it from _______ to ________

What do you suggest I should do/use for the wire itself?
Thanks.

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Last edited by TarheelTerp; 01-06-2014 at 01:29 PM.
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Old 01-06-2014, 02:01 PM   #2
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Feed wire sizing and Gnd/Bond Stuff


3 wire SE from meter base to outside panel.
4 wire SER from outside panel to inside panel.
Unless local codes dictate, no conduit needed to inside panel

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Old 01-06-2014, 02:10 PM   #3
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Feed wire sizing and Gnd/Bond Stuff


Are you running aluminum or copper service entrance ?

#6 is too small for 200 amp water bond regardless
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Old 01-06-2014, 02:53 PM   #4
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Feed wire sizing and Gnd/Bond Stuff


Thanks for the reply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbfan View Post
3 wire SE from meter base to outside panel.
It's in conduit. It's less than 3'... can the SE be sleeved?
Quote:
4 wire SER from outside panel to inside panel.
What size?

Oh yeah... what about the Ground & Bond work?
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Old 01-06-2014, 02:57 PM   #5
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Feed wire sizing and Gnd/Bond Stuff


The GEC to the rods never needs to be larger than #6. To the water line needs to be #4.

If you are going to run conduit use individual conductors, not SE.

You will need to use different sizing tables since the inside panel is not the entire load of the dwelling.
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Old 01-06-2014, 04:20 PM   #6
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Feed wire sizing and Gnd/Bond Stuff


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
If you are going to run conduit use individual conductors, not SE.
That was my plan.

The question was what size for a 200A resi service.
4/0 AL should be fine, but...

Quote:
You will need to use different sizing tables
since the inside panel is not the entire load...
Right.

And after I buy the gas stove and gas dryer...
there will be NO 240 Volt loads at all.

I haven't done a calc of any sort but I'd bet anything that 100A is high. Probably closer to 60.

If I do a calculation... can I still run it (1/0 AL for 100A?) through the 200A main in the panel without doing anything else?

(it's really just a master on/off switch with the 200A in the 3R main doing the over-protection)

Quote:
The GEC to the rods never needs to be larger than #6.
And run only at the meter can as it is now?

Quote:
(The GEC) To the water line needs to be #4.
Right.

But do I really need to go all the way back to the service entry? Gawd. It's literally the opposite corner of the house.

Thanks.

Last edited by TarheelTerp; 01-06-2014 at 04:26 PM.
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Old 01-06-2014, 05:08 PM   #7
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Feed wire sizing and Gnd/Bond Stuff


It is not just an on off switch ...

It will protect the 1/0. A 200 amp breaker is not allowed to protect a 1/0 aluminum feeder at the downstream panel. Doesn't matter what your calculated load is at present.

You can only use it (1/0) if the feeder is a tap (tap rules) and it lands on a ocpd rated 100 amps or less at the sub panel.

25-ft feeder tap rule [240.21(B)(2)] You don't have to install an OCPD at the tap point of a feeder tap if its length doesn't exceed 25 ft and if it meets the following requirements:
  • The ampacity of the tap conductors is not less than ⅓ the ampacity of the OCPD protecting the feeder.
  • The tap conductors are terminated in a single circuit breaker or set of fuses having a rating no greater than the conductor ampacity as listed in Table 310.16.
  • The tap conductors are suitably protected from physical damage or enclosed in a raceway
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Old 01-06-2014, 05:16 PM   #8
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Feed wire sizing and Gnd/Bond Stuff


Quote:
it's really just a master on/off switch with the 200A in the 3R main doing the over-protection
Nope ...it is the overcurrent protection and short circuit and ground fault protection. Using a tap arrangement the 200 amp breaker in the service equipment 3R panel acts as your short circuit protection for the feeder and the 100 amp breaker in the sub is your overcurrent protection.

Quote:
And run only at the meter can as it is now
Personally I'd run them from the service equipment panel as I would the water pipe bond. Some juris
dictions will not allow it in the meter can.

Quote:
But do I really need to go all the way back to the service entry? Gawd. It's literally the opposite corner of the house.
Where else would you go? http://www.ecmag.com/section/systems...g-water-piping
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Old 01-06-2014, 05:27 PM   #9
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Feed wire sizing and Gnd/Bond Stuff


Some power companies will not allow grounding conductors in the socket either.
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Old 01-06-2014, 06:38 PM   #10
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Feed wire sizing and Gnd/Bond Stuff


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stubbie View Post
I'd run (the bare #6 to the rods) from the service equipment panel as I would the water pipe bond.
I would too...
but for some reason that isn't what was done here.

Quote:
...the 200 amp breaker in the 3R panel acts as your short circuit protection for the feeder...
That's what I said (or thought I had) by using the feed through lugs.

Quote:
...and the 100 amp breaker in the sub is your over-current protection.
That's the missing piece.

I'm doing exactly this for the garage sub panel but was mental blocking myself about doing it for the house sub panel too.

I bought that inside panel first (AFI breaker space and package deal price)... but maybe should have held off and gotten it last.

Thanks.

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