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Old 09-15-2007, 10:11 AM   #46
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feed back voltage when using double breaker


OK, whatever baloneyman.
So if I run one new circuit I now have a grounded "system"???

I have a feeling we will never agree on this so I am bowing out. I see you are already having a tendency to butt heads will everyone on this site, and I am not in the mood right now.

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Old 09-15-2007, 10:13 AM   #47
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feed back voltage when using double breaker


I'll just say I suggest you read NEC - 250.21
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Old 09-15-2007, 10:18 AM   #48
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feed back voltage when using double breaker


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OK, whatever baloneyman.
So if I run one new circuit I now have a grounded "system"???

I have a feeling we will never agree on this so I am bowing out. I see you are already having a tendency to butt heads will everyone on this site, and I am not in the mood right now.

The fact that you feel the need to call me names speaks volumes about you.
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Old 09-15-2007, 10:19 AM   #49
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feed back voltage when using double breaker


slugger...is ur system grounded or ungrounded?
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Old 09-15-2007, 02:03 PM   #50
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feed back voltage when using double breaker


The house was built in the 1950s. The owner and I put a new 200 amp panel in with a permit that was signed off. The system is definitely grounded with an 8 foot copper rod as required by code. It is not a tube and nob system. I'm sorry that I'm causing so much trouble. I thought I asked a fairly straight forward question. Thanks again.
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Old 09-15-2007, 02:18 PM   #51
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The fact that you feel the need to call me names speaks volumes about you.
Thank you. It's your screen name, not mine.
Sorry if I am too sarcastic for you or if you got "offended". Being PC is not in my repertoire.
I feel very ashamed now.
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Old 09-15-2007, 02:20 PM   #52
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I'm sorry that I'm causing so much trouble. I thought I asked a fairly straight forward question. Thanks again.
Mike, do not apologize. It's just a disagreement between two professionals.
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Old 09-15-2007, 03:44 PM   #53
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feed back voltage when using double breaker


Slugger....but is the wiring system itself grounded.....bonding a GEC to the grounded conductor does not provide a grounded system throughout the house, where you attach the equpiment you need to have grounded.

If you do not have a grounding conductor included with your branch circuits, then you have an ungrounded electrical system
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Old 09-15-2007, 05:18 PM   #54
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feed back voltage when using double breaker


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If you do not have a grounding conductor included with your branch circuits, then you have an ungrounded electrical system
Your use of ungrounded system is misleading, however I do know what your getting at but the fact that a branch circuit does not have an equipment grounding means does not make the premises wiring derived from an ungrounded source.

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Old 09-16-2007, 04:39 AM   #55
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feed back voltage when using double breaker


This circuits are grounded as are all the circuits in the house.
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Old 09-16-2007, 09:13 AM   #56
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Your use of ungrounded system is misleading, however I do know what your getting at but the fact that a branch circuit does not have an equipment grounding means does not make the premises wiring derived from an ungrounded source.

Stubbie
Stubbie....an ungrounded electrical wiring system is one that does not have a grounding conductor.

As I explained to slugger, attaching a GES to the grounded conductor at the MDP does not change the fact that the branch circuits are an ungrounded electrical wiring system.

We do not plug our electrical equipment in at the MDP, we plug in at the end of the branch circuits
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Old 09-16-2007, 09:18 AM   #57
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This circuits are grounded as are all the circuits in the house.
Ok....assuming you are correct, and everything is grounded effectively, the next source of voltage is capacitance. Its unlikely to build up 50 volts capacitance on a short run.

There are certain tests I would do to find the source of the voltage
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Old 09-16-2007, 04:52 PM   #58
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feed back voltage when using double breaker


The following link that I was referred to by Stubbie states that the longer the run the higher the phantom voltage is when running 12/3 romex. A short run may not show any voltage. I believe what I have is phantom voltage based on this link, and everything I've read.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_voltage
www.nema.org/prod/wire/build/upload/Bulletin%2088%202003.doc

Thanks for all of your help. Everything is up and running and I feel confident that it was done correctly.
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Old 09-16-2007, 05:04 PM   #59
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feed back voltage when using double breaker


I'd like to point out a few issues from the bulletine.

1.Due to the high impedance of measuring instruments, a voltage reading may be detected on open conductors where there is no hard electrical connection to a voltage source.

They are talking about "open" conductors, where there is "no" hard connection....you explained that you are sharing a neutral, and turn off one breaker and get the voltage. The neutral is "connected" to the enegized system and is not considered an "open" connection.

The bulletin mentions that "care" must be taken to ensure that the voltage you are reading is capacitive. This means that tests must be conducted to ensure this condition.

Its your house, and you can do as you want, but the people giving you advice about phantom volatges haven't a clue as to what they're talking about
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Old 09-20-2007, 03:37 PM   #60
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feed back voltage when using double breaker


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Quote:
I'd like to point out a few issues from the bulletine.

1.Due to the high impedance of measuring instruments, a voltage reading may be detected on open conductors where there is no hard electrical connection to a voltage source
They are talking about "open" conductors, where there is "no" hard connection....you explained that you are sharing a neutral, and turn off one breaker and get the voltage. The neutral is "connected" to the enegized system and is not considered an "open" connection.
Well I'll be... I learn something everyday I had no idea that when you turn off a breaker the neutral is still hard connected to a voltage source.

Lets see now if I have a multi-wire circuit with the breaker off that is connected to a general purpose branch circuit and I have nothing plugged into that circuit or hard wired to that circuit and its not operating my neutral is energized with voltage because it is connected to the neutral bar which is a voltage source. Interesting.....to coin a phrase from you... NEWS FLASH --- Neutrals do not carry voltage because they are connected to the neutral bar. It's not a voltage source. However they might carry phantom voltage... or even voltage/earth potential differences

Answer these for me ...your years of experience should make this a piece of cake....


All branch circuit breakers in the "on" position and mikes circuit breaker in the off position.

1.) If I connected a low impedance meter set to ac volts to a properly grounded service neutral and to the case at the service equipment what would I expect for a voltage reading?

2.) What would I get at a sub-panel fed from this service panel (properly grounded) doing the same thing?

3.) What would I get for voltage at a receptacle on mikes circuit (the breaker is off) if I measure neutral to the grounding wire of the branch circuit?

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The bulletin mentions that "care" must be taken to ensure that the voltage you are reading is capacitive. This means that tests must be conducted to ensure this condition.
Go back and read... you know that stuff called text. We had him test.
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Its your house, and you can do as you want, but the people giving you advice about phantom volatges haven't a clue as to what they're talking about
Ok so just exactly what is it you want him to do to find this "magic" in his wires?

Hey you know what? Before you get done seeing where you are constantly wrong you may actually learn something...but that may be wishful thinking.

Have you registered on any professional forums? I'd like to read some of your stuff and how those professionals replied to you....can you give me some references.....

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Last edited by Stubbie; 09-21-2007 at 03:01 AM.
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