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Old 09-14-2007, 12:22 PM   #31
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feed back voltage when using double breaker


I know absolutely NOTHING about systems outside the US so I will not comment further on that.

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Old 09-14-2007, 12:30 PM   #32
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feed back voltage when using double breaker


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Originally Posted by buffalonymann View Post
It appears that you are referring to outside distribution, i was referring to inside distribution.

I am certified on inside work, but I believe our outside distribution is configured similarly as yours. I'm quite sure the Utility 'earths' the neutral or "grounded conductor" This is why it is called the grounded conductor. Our Utilities provide both star and delta primaries
I'm sorry but I don't know what you mean by 'outside' & 'inside' distribution systems.

Essentially, the TT system provides for all single phase & 3 phase requirements for the majority of needs in Australia (the TT system virtually eliminates all extraneous neutral voltages because the neutral is grounded. No more flickering fluorescent lights etc). An Australian electrician can work on all of these unless it involves high voltage. I have been an electrician since 1983 (when I finished my apprenticeship) & have been employed as a switchboard design engineer since 1989.

I'm just curious as to where the US is up to with all of this. I can search the web but the answers are not definitive.

Cheers,
Rob.
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Old 09-14-2007, 01:20 PM   #33
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feed back voltage when using double breaker


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the 50 volts is not a phantom voltage, you are creating a series-parallel circuit when you use the common neutral. you are reading the voltage that is passing through the appliance that is energized. The 50 volts represents the balance of the voltage drop accross that appliance
Reread the posts. The OP says he gets the 50V reading without the appliances connected. It is indeed an induced or phantom voltage.

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As somebody else mentioned, the NEC DOES require in all residential buildings that multiwire circuits must be connected with a two or three pole interrupting device so configured that all handles open and close simutaneously.
The handle ties on the breakers in a multiwire setup are only required if the circuits share a common strap, i.e., each of the two receptacles of a duplex. The use of a common trip breaker is advised, but not required in all other cases.
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Old 09-14-2007, 02:27 PM   #34
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feed back voltage when using double breaker


HouseHelper, I currently have the two hots coming into one duplex receptacle that has been separtated and the shared common going to the neutral side of the receptacle. One of the hots is for the garbage disposal and the other is for the dishwasher and counter duplex receptacles. Is this OK, or should I have two separate duplex receptacles? I got the impression from your last post that I should use two separate duplex receptacles.
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Old 09-14-2007, 02:32 PM   #35
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feed back voltage when using double breaker


One duplex is OK provided you place the breakers adjacent to each other and tie the handles so both are turned off OR you use a double pole, common trip breaker.

As a code issue, you should not be sharing the dishwasher and the countertop receptacles. You can, however, have the dishwasher and disposal share the same circuit.
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Old 09-14-2007, 02:41 PM   #36
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feed back voltage when using double breaker


Would I still have to use a double pole breaker, or tie two single pole beakers together if I used two duplex receptacles that share the same neutral on the 12/3 romex that I have already run? Previously it was my understanding that the phantom voltage was not a problem.
Thanks
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Old 09-15-2007, 08:14 AM   #37
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feed back voltage when using double breaker


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Reread the posts. The OP says he gets the 50V reading without the appliances connected. It is indeed an induced or phantom voltage.

The handle ties on the breakers in a multiwire setup are only required if the circuits share a common strap, i.e., each of the two receptacles of a duplex. The use of a common trip breaker is advised, but not required in all other cases.

As you see, he is using one receptacle.

It is not an induced nor phantom voltage, if neither of the appliances are connected, then the 50 volts appears because the system is not grounded properly.

Electrical currents and voltages are governed by theories and laws. You won't find the term 'phantom voltages' among those theories and laws. People use this term when they cannot troubleshoot the cause of the voltages.
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Old 09-15-2007, 08:25 AM   #38
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feed back voltage when using double breaker


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You won't find the term 'phantom voltages' among those theories and laws. People use this term when they cannot troubleshoot the cause of the voltages.
BULL!!!

Regardless of the current situation the above statement is B-S!
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Old 09-15-2007, 08:33 AM   #39
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feed back voltage when using double breaker


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I'm sorry but I don't know what you mean by 'outside' & 'inside' distribution systems.

Essentially, the TT system provides for all single phase & 3 phase requirements for the majority of needs in Australia (the TT system virtually eliminates all extraneous neutral voltages because the neutral is grounded. No more flickering fluorescent lights etc). An Australian electrician can work on all of these unless it involves high voltage. I have been an electrician since 1983 (when I finished my apprenticeship) & have been employed as a switchboard design engineer since 1989.

I'm just curious as to where the US is up to with all of this. I can search the web but the answers are not definitive.

Cheers,
Rob.
Basically, outside work is all wiring and equipment from the generating plant to the point of delivery to a customer. Inside work is the remainder. I am a Master Electrician, I can contract both inside and outside work.

Earth ground isn't really "grounded" with respect to fluorescent lights. When we ground one leg of a xfmr, we force all potential to the other leg, with respect to ground.
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Old 09-15-2007, 08:36 AM   #40
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feed back voltage when using double breaker


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Originally Posted by sluggermike View Post
Would I still have to use a double pole breaker, or tie two single pole beakers together if I used two duplex receptacles that share the same neutral on the 12/3 romex that I have already run? Previously it was my understanding that the phantom voltage was not a problem.
Thanks
Do you have a grounded electrical system?
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Old 09-15-2007, 08:38 AM   #41
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feed back voltage when using double breaker


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BULL!!!

Regardless of the current situation the above statement is B-S!


When you can show me any electrical theory or law that uses the term 'phantom volatge".....then you can say Bull.....until then...the fact remains.
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Old 09-15-2007, 08:52 AM   #42
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feed back voltage when using double breaker


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Do you have a grounded electrical system?
Is this a serious question?
When have you ever seen an "ungrounded" residential system?

Also,what does this have to do with the question asked?
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Old 09-15-2007, 09:00 AM   #43
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feed back voltage when using double breaker


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Is this a serious question?
When have you ever seen an "ungrounded" residential system?

Also,what does this have to do with the question asked?
I was a little shocked that you asked....but I see ungrounded electrical systems in many houses....Just last week I pointed out to a friend of mine, who recently bought a house, that is was ungrounded.

Grounded electrical systems in the US didn't begin til about the 50s Have you heard of knob & tube? Even the first sheathed cable did not include a grounding conductor
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Old 09-15-2007, 09:06 AM   #44
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feed back voltage when using double breaker


That is not an ungrounded "system". The service is still "grounded" via the neutral bond. Run a new branch circuit and you have a grounded branch circuit.
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Old 09-15-2007, 09:08 AM   #45
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feed back voltage when using double breaker


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That is not an ungrounded "system". The service is still "grounded" via the neutral bond. Run a new branch circuit and you have a grounded branch circuit.
You're mistaken; An ungrounded electrical system is one that has no grounding conductor....two wire electrical systems have no grounding conductor

You even admit that a new circuit has to be installed in order for it to be a grounded system

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