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Old 06-15-2007, 05:09 PM   #31
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Ok,
it should work now. I had forgotten that I had two sites and also forgot to publish them to one of the sites. Its been a while since I posted pictures to my sites and forgot the procedures. The following url should work:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeqx2eq/bobssite22/

Just scroll down to near the bottom.

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Old 06-15-2007, 06:02 PM   #32
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Jwhite and Nate,
The pictures are posted on my site and I really do not want to tear anything up either interior or exterior to do this job. So it appears my only option is to run pvc from the existing GFCI, parrallel along the wall to the neighbors fence. Then down to the concrete and on top of it, to a point in the garden. It won't be a tripping hazard unless my neighbor takes down the fence. I will deal with it then.

Also I should not need another GFCI at the new location because I can piggyback the new receptical to the GFCI; correct?

If this is still not up to code, then its better then what I got now.
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Old 06-15-2007, 07:07 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjordan392 View Post
If this is still not up to code, then its better then what I got now.
We were not the ones who put a fountain in first then decided as an after thought to consider electrical safety.

We are the ones who have dedicated many hours of free labor to help you make this installation safe.

We are not paid for this, we are doing this as a favor to you.

Comments like the one above are a slap in the face for all our efforts.
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Last edited by jwhite; 06-15-2007 at 07:16 PM.
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Old 06-15-2007, 07:13 PM   #34
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The proper way to do this would be to use the existing GFI. Install an FS box extension so that you can come out the side if it. Use PVC conduit or UF cable. Strap along the side of the house to the fence line. go down underground to a depth of 12 inches. cut the concrete as needed. Install a post near the fountain to mount a new recepticle. Patch the concrete as needed.

That being said, it is obvious from your posts that you do not care about the right way to do this. You want professionals to rubber stamp your design choice.

I plan to do here what I would do at my full time job and just walk away from this project. What you do is your business, I will have no part of it.
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Old 06-15-2007, 09:04 PM   #35
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<Comments like the one above are a slap in the face for all our efforts.>

The slap in the face should be directed at the NEC and the Manufacturers for not coming up with approved tools and materials for situations like mine without having to tear up someones property.
If I were to hire out this job to a electrical and concrete contractors, I estimate the job to be at $900.00 costs total, maybe more. I don't believe there are many people willing to put out that kind of money for a receptical.

I am not asking for a rubber stamp. I have done enough electrical work elsewhere in my home and its all done by the NEC. But when obstructions such as concrete is in the way, then its time to bend the rules. Now I have agreed to use pvc and will use uf cable to replace the extension cords. Now that is about as safe as I can make it.

But what has not been addressed by you or others is the fact that the water pumps cord appears to be of the same material of the extension cord. I have to say that sunlight and summer temperatures are going to affect it. Seems to me, that also a hazard and everybody that has a water fountain may be in violation of the code. Will they get rid of the fountain? No Way.

So what does the NEC say about these water pump cords. If they say: As long as its GFCI protected, then all's well. Then they should say the same for extension cords.

I believe the NEC is over zealous in some parts of the code. If the people who write it, want to be as safe as possible, all they need do when they get out of bed is to crawl back under it and stay there. The rest of us will face the challanges.
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Old 06-16-2007, 02:59 AM   #36
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Rjordan392:

you say " The slap in the face should be directed at the NEC " ??

Let me expain a little i will support Jwhite and few other sparky as well the NEC is the guideline we do follow it for safety reason and the manufacters have to follow the NEC code for their equiment as well and the UL and few other testing organiations as well.


Belive me they are try very hard to expain in very plain langune what you can understand the words related to the outdoor wiring and related system.

And you think the slap in the face toward to us i think you better stop and think for a min ,.. i am not being rude but why not you ask the electrical inspector in your area and he/she will expain what the proper regulations will be reqired and i am sure it will be very simauir what other sparkys here been telling ya in here.

Rjoradan392; if you think the NEC is very strict .,, be my freaking guest to check out the european counterparts they are far more stricter with outdoor system. I used to live in France before and i know both France and UK system for outdoor repectailes and foundations requirement is very strict.

If you want the code from their counterparts just give me a day or two i will post it here you will say oh mon dieu !! so i am not kidding with their system

now just think about a min what ya try to think to sqeak away with extison cords IMO the extension cords are good for 90 days but you will have to check for cracks etc etc and someone walking and get tripped on the cord and get hurt how you will expain someone how it can be advoidable


Merci, Marc
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Old 06-16-2007, 06:15 AM   #37
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<If I were to hire out this job to a electrical and concrete contractors, I estimate the job to be at $900.00 costs total, maybe more. I don't believe there are many people willing to put out that kind of money for a receptical.>

None of the writers of the NEC or mfgs of material decided to put in a pump before figuring out how to get power to it. You did. All of the proper methods, materials and tools are available.

<So what does the NEC say about these water pump cords.>

The NEC does not cover the pump cord that is installed by the mfg. All it says is that the pump and cord must be listed as an assembly. The mfg hires an independent testing lab to certify that the pump is safe if properly installed. The nec does cover the use of extension cords and says that they cannot be used for perminant wiring methods. My input is that, yes the cord is less safe than a perminant wiring method, but is necessary so that you have a way to connect the pump to the house wiring. Making the less safe type wire several feet longer than it needs to be just plain dumb.

<I believe the NEC is over zealous in some parts of the code. If the people who write it, want to be as safe as possible, all they need do when they get out of bed is to crawl back under it and stay there. The rest of us will face the challanges.>

You may be right on this point. If you are seriousy concerned, anyone can join NFPA and have input into code changes. The 2008 cycle is done, but it is not too late for 2011. Feel free to enter a proposal for a change. However, once your city or state has adopted the NEC what you cannot do is pick and choose which parts you feel should or should not be followed. If that were allowed we might as well not have a code at all.
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Old 06-16-2007, 07:55 AM   #38
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I like to say a few words about the NFPA.
They are no longer allowed to hold their conventions in Philadelphia.
Back in the 1970's, our fire department made numerous runs to the hotel where they were staying and all were false. Our city sent a letter to the main headquarters stating they were no longer invited to hold their conventions.
Afterwhich, our fire department no longer met the criteria to receive an award as best fire department for a city of a certain size. Early in my career as a firefighter, I remember these awards and we were getting them every year.
So if the NEC is anything like the NFPA, I would not put all the weight on their gospel.

<Making the less safe type wire several feet longer than it needs to be just plain dumb>

I already mentioned that this will be changed to uf cable and inserted in pvc. Even though not ideal or approved if I lay the pvc on the concrete by the fence, its still better then my present arrangement. I know all about safety, it was less safe for me to perform my job as a firefighter then most occupations and we get paid much less then contractors.
Are the public's interests being served by codes made up by those whose interests serve the manufacturers and the trades? I don't know of any effort to organize the public to provide imput to the codes, being as we are the one's going to the bank to pay for them.

Last edited by rjordan392; 06-16-2007 at 02:29 PM.
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Old 06-17-2007, 04:33 PM   #39
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Nate,
When I saw your reply about tapping conduit under the concrete; I did not understand what you meant. But after checking with a diy wireing book, I saw that a small trench is dug out in the garden area, then a maul is used to drive in rigid metal conduit under the concrete.
Then a small hole about 12 to 18 inches square can be made in the concrete at the base of the front wall of my home, down to the required depth. Then the rigid can be driven.

Jwhite's reply #20 on the message board was not clear. He used the word "ditch". To me, a ditch is a elongated hole. This indicates to me that I would need to cut out a 7-1/2 foot by 12 to 18 inch's of concrete to lay the conduit in. The breaking of that much concrete is unnecessary work and expense.
Now if he had said to break out a small piece of concrete at the base of the wall and dig out the hole to 12 to 18 inches deep and then to proceed to the garden area and make a ditch ( the required length) to drive the conduit under the concrete, then we both would have been on base with each other.
Miscommunicating using incorrect wording does happen.

So I am making plans for all this to be accomplished.

Last edited by rjordan392; 06-17-2007 at 10:09 PM.
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Old 06-18-2007, 08:53 PM   #40
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In order to punch under a sidewalk you need a ditch as long as the conduit you are using as the punch. Otherwise you will not be able to hammer the end of it and still hold it at the right angle.

Hitting your target is very difficult, and rocks and stuff will put a damper on your day fast.

The last one I did was 3 foot wide and took me and two helpers about six hours.
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Old 06-18-2007, 10:43 PM   #41
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Jwhite,
I have I believe to be a 15 or 20 lb. maul and a smaller one. I should be able to get 3 to 5 inches with each swing. I may just use Rigid metal conduit as a sacrifice, then try to ease it out and replace with pvc. Does the rigid come with threads? I would need to place a cap on both ends for driving it in.
Or use regular steel pipe for the sacrifice.

If I manage not to mess up the rigid metal conduit, can it be connected to pvc for above ground installs and would that be code approved?

I plan to make an 11 foot ditch in my garden to accomodate an 8 foot length of conduit to be driven under the concrete. I believe the 3 foot clearance will leave me enough swinging room.
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Old 06-19-2007, 03:24 PM   #42
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Of all the threads on this website, this has been perhaps the most entertaining in a while.
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Old 06-19-2007, 06:31 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjordan392 View Post
Jwhite,
I have I believe to be a 15 or 20 lb. maul and a smaller one. I should be able to get 3 to 5 inches with each swing. I may just use Rigid metal conduit as a sacrifice, then try to ease it out and replace with pvc. Does the rigid come with threads? I would need to place a cap on both ends for driving it in.
Or use regular steel pipe for the sacrifice.

If I manage not to mess up the rigid metal conduit, can it be connected to pvc for above ground installs and would that be code approved?

I plan to make an 11 foot ditch in my garden to accomodate an 8 foot length of conduit to be driven under the concrete. I believe the 3 foot clearance will leave me enough swinging room.
good luck.
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Old 06-20-2007, 01:30 PM   #44
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Bob, is that fountain really worth all the trouble. Why don't you just use a solar powered pump?
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Old 06-20-2007, 04:32 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by rjordan392 View Post
...then try to ease it out and replace with pvc.
Good luck indeed!

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