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Old 06-26-2009, 05:44 PM   #1
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Extend outdoor electric? Is it possible?


I have a 40 amp panel for my pool equipment. Because of more equipment, lighting, and other stuff being put in I had to have a 100 amp circuit brought down and we installed a new panel for that circuit.

I would like to get rid of the old 40 amp panel, as it is in a bad spot, and move that 40 amp circuit to the new panel so that both the new 100 amp and the old 40 amp circuit are in the same panel.

I am being told, though, that because the older 40 amp circuit does not have any slack he can't extend it to the new panel which is 3 feet away. Not knowing if this is true or not I started questioning further and was also told that you really should extend electrical cable as it is a hazard, especially when outdoors.

Is this true? Couldn't he install a junction box and then extend the cable inside the junction box?

Or am I just better off leaving the panel and be done with it?

Thanks in advance for any info and advice.

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Old 06-26-2009, 06:22 PM   #2
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Extend outdoor electric? Is it possible?


Anything is possible and jboxes outside have been done before.
Is this a real electrican telling you this?

Pictures would help, but I see no reason it can't be done.

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Old 06-26-2009, 06:29 PM   #3
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Extend outdoor electric? Is it possible?


Is this part of same structure as the house/main feed?

As I understand you can only have one feeder to a detached structure
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Old 06-26-2009, 07:13 PM   #4
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Extend outdoor electric? Is it possible?


Quote:
Originally Posted by jbfan View Post
Is this a real electrican telling you this?
Yes, this is an electrician telling me this.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuba_Dave View Post
Is this part of same structure as the house/main feed?

As I understand you can only have one feeder to a detached structure
Not sure of the terminology, but these lines are running from my basement panel in the house to an outside pool area where my pool pump and heater are.
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Old 06-26-2009, 08:11 PM   #5
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Extend outdoor electric? Is it possible?


I think 2 feeders (2 different power runs) is OK then
As long as it isn't inside a structure/shed/pool cabana
Do you need more then the 100a? That's a lot of power
I'd be inclined to simply disconnect, install a junction box & cap the wires where they are.
That way if you find out you need it you can then add on
Do you have electric heat for the pool?
I went with solar
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Old 06-27-2009, 10:12 AM   #6
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Extend outdoor electric? Is it possible?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuba_Dave View Post
As long as it isn't inside a structure/shed/pool cabana
Do you need more then the 100a?
No i definitely do not need that much power. At the same time its expensive to bring electricity down from the house as the pool area is 100+ feet away from the back of the house. With that said, if its there, I may as well keep it there.

Quote:
I'd be inclined to simply disconnect, install a junction box & cap the wires where they are.
That way if you find out you need it you can then add on
As the panel is there I may just try and work around it. Why waste a working panel, right?

Quote:
Do you have electric heat for the pool?
I went with solar
Yup we went with an electric heat pump for the pool.
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Old 06-27-2009, 11:28 AM   #7
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Extend outdoor electric? Is it possible?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Skalek View Post
I have a 40 amp panel for my pool equipment. Because of more equipment, lighting, and other stuff being put in I had to have a 100 amp circuit brought down and we installed a new panel for that circuit.

I would like to get rid of the old 40 amp panel, as it is in a bad spot, and move that 40 amp circuit to the new panel so that both the new 100 amp and the old 40 amp circuit are in the same panel.

You cannot reuse the feeder for the 40 amp panel. But you can use the 40 amp circuit again if it originates in the new 100 amp panel. Article 225.30 does not allow more than one feeder per structure. If you have two structures out there and the 40 amp is on one and the 100 amp is in the other then you are okay.

I am being told, though, that because the older 40 amp circuit does not have any slack he can't extend it to the new panel which is 3 feet away. Not knowing if this is true or not I started questioning further and was also told that you really should extend electrical cable as it is a hazard, especially when outdoors.

Junction boxes are installed all the time for this purpose. Is it inside or outside. You say 3 feet away. Do you mean you have the 40 amp and the 100 amp panels 3 feet apart? If so, this would be very easy to move into the new panel. The 40 amp feeder must be removed or disconnected. You can reuse the circuit, but not the feeder.

Is this true? Couldn't he install a junction box and then extend the cable inside the junction box?

Yes

Or am I just better off leaving the panel and be done with it?

You can leave it if you like. From the 100 amp panel run another feeder from it to the 40 amp. This will be allowed. But the original feeder from the house cannot be used again. Unless it feeds a different structure. There are some exceptions, to this rule.

Thanks in advance for any info and advice.
Here is article 225.30 of the 2005 NEC code book for your reference.

225.30 Number of Supplies. Where more than one building
or other structure is on the same property and under
single management, each additional building or other structure
that is served by a branch circuit or feeder on the load
side of the service disconnecting means shall be supplied
by only one feeder or branch circuit unless permitted in
225.30(A) through (E). For the purpose of this section, a
multiwire branch circuit shall be considered a single circuit.
(A) Special Conditions. Additional feeders or branch circuits
shall be permitted to supply the following:
(1) Fire pumps
(2) Emergency systems
(3) Legally required standby systems
(4) Optional standby systems
(5) Parallel power production systems
(6) Systems designed for connection to multiple sources of
supply for the purpose of enhanced reliability
(B) Special Occupancies. By special permission, additional
feeders or branch circuits shall be permitted for either
of the following:
(1) Multiple-occupancy buildings where there is no space
available for supply equipment accessible to all occupants
(2) A single building or other structure sufficiently large to
make two or more supplies necessary
(C) Capacity Requirements. Additional feeders or
branch circuits shall be permitted where the capacity
requirements are in excess of 2000 amperes at a supply
voltage of 600 volts or less.
(D) Different Characteristics. Additional feeders or branch
circuits shall be permitted for different voltages, frequencies,
or phases or for different uses, such as control of outside lighting
from multiple locations.

Hope this helps you some.
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Old 06-27-2009, 01:20 PM   #8
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Extend outdoor electric? Is it possible?


I wasn't actually thinking of what you are trying to do
I'm pretty sure you can't feed a panel with 2 different sets of feeders
The panel has one set of bus bars - being fed with 100a now
There isn't any way that I know of to add the 40a of power to that panel. So I'd just leave the panel if you still want that power available

You can feed ther 40a panel from the 100a
....1st disconnecting the existing feed from the house
But that won't give you any extra power
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Old 06-28-2009, 12:20 PM   #9
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Extend outdoor electric? Is it possible?


Yea, I'm not real clear on his question either. For clarity I think he should abandon the 40 amp feeder and use the 100 amp panel to feed everything. He cannot meet any of the exceptions in 225.30. IMHO. He can get alot of juice out of a 100 amp panel. Many homes have 100 amps or less.
Good post Dave.

Just thought of something. That 40 amp feeder could be put on a pedestal mount. The pedestal is a structure. He then could use it in addition to the 100 amp panel. OP are you listening? I think he cut out on us.

Last edited by J. V.; 06-28-2009 at 12:26 PM.
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Old 06-29-2009, 12:23 PM   #10
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Extend outdoor electric? Is it possible?


Sorry for the delay all. Lost internet access this weekend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by J. V. View Post
Yea, I'm not real clear on his question either. For clarity I think he should abandon the 40 amp feeder and use the 100 amp panel to feed everything. He cannot meet any of the exceptions in 225.30. IMHO. He can get alot of juice out of a 100 amp panel. Many homes have 100 amps or less.
Good post Dave.
I guess I am confused about what you mean by a feeder. Is a feeder a line the power line that is tapped off of my basement panel and then goes out to my pool area?

Quote:
Just thought of something. That 40 amp feeder could be put on a pedestal mount. The pedestal is a structure. He then could use it in addition to the 100 amp panel. OP are you listening? I think he cut out on us.
What exactly is a pedastal mount?
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Old 06-30-2009, 10:20 PM   #11
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Extend outdoor electric? Is it possible?


I would abandon and tear out the old panel. It would be better not to put a junction box outside unless absolutely necessary.
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Old 06-30-2009, 10:29 PM   #12
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Extend outdoor electric? Is it possible?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Skalek View Post
I guess I am confused about what you mean by a feeder. Is a feeder a line the power line that is tapped off of my basement panel and then goes out to my pool area?

What exactly is a pedastal mount?
A feeder is just the wires that "feed" the panel, thus called feeders
Only ONE set of feeders can go from the Main panel to another detached building

So if BOTH panels are on the same detached structure & live then it violates code
The solution is to take the 40a panel off & have it on a pedastal
Sort of like a mailbox is on its own post
Something like this:


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