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Old 01-28-2009, 07:33 PM   #31
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Entire Rewire or New Branch Circuits?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Typ0 View Post
I've never liked making the hooks around the screws. But the thing I don't like about it is i don't do it enough. So I get frustrated for a bit and then I feel more comfortable but the job is done. I love to learn and look forward to this project. Especially when you consider the $$$ that I'm going to save along the way.
If you get frustrated with making j hooks for devices, but clamp down devices. If you get frustrated somewhat easily in general, this is NOT a project for you to take on. There are hundreds of small details to learn, and if you don't have lots of patience, plan on smashing all of your walls. Very much work can be done without destruction of walls, but takes lots of time and patience. It may very well be easier for you to smash the walls. In my parrents house we had to preserve lots of nearly 100 year old trim and wood work. So taking the time to fish was very important.

Jamie

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Old 01-28-2009, 08:16 PM   #32
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I've found the 1000's to run a bit higher (price per foot) than the 250's. But well worth it for the advantage of having it on a spool.

Jamie

They had 250s on clearance sale at Menard's over here for $38

I just had to get it.

If your going to get nm, get it now! Its very cheap!
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Old 01-28-2009, 11:37 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by rgsgww View Post
They had 250s on clearance sale at Menard's over here for $38

I just had to get it.

If your going to get nm, get it now! Its very cheap!
Same price at homedepot also. Jamie
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Old 01-29-2009, 01:21 AM   #34
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Entire Rewire or New Branch Circuits?


TypO, if I were you I would have an electrician come in an upgrade the service to 200 amps. Updated grounding is required when you do this so that gets taken care of as well. You'll thank me when the electrician comes in later to wire up your new central A/C system and tells you your 100 amps will work but will dim the lights each time the compressor starts up. Also, he could install GFCI breakers for all the circuits that are not grounded so then you could comeback and change out all the receptacles in the house to 3-prong without having to rewire the whole house and have all of that satisfy the code. As for your sensitive electronic equipment, I would definitely advise you to run dedicated 20 amp circuits (12/ 2 w/ ground) for all of them.
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Old 01-29-2009, 08:11 AM   #35
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Service upgrades can affect the "lights dimming" when high load motors start up. Sometimes it won't. I had a 400 amp service "paralleling" 2 4/0 al. When I had some unrelated work done, the power had to be cut (buried service). The poco wanted a new service put in. It would have been the cheapest compared to reconnecting the original. They used 2 350kcmil for the hot legs and a 4/0 neutral. My lights used to dim to a 14 amp furnace start. I have yet to see the lights dim...


If you want a 200 panel, what service do you currently have? arieal or burial?
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Old 01-29-2009, 08:12 AM   #36
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The thing that gets me about this approach is what am I doing with the old boxes as I'm putting in the new? I guess you are saying to put an entirely new system in right down to the boxes--including cutting new holes. And then go back and take out the old and cover up the holes. I guess that would mean all the boxes are going to move onto new studs since the code determines their height from the floor.

I've been trying to think of the best approach here. If I'm going to rewire everything, I think ideally I'd know where the first box is on every circuit (how to figure that out ) and cut off the remainder of that circuit there. Then, I would rewire the remainder of the circuit and then I would tie the first box to the panel. This way, I would never have a complete circuit dead and i would have time to get the rest of the circuit together.

Thanks for the tool list. I'm going to take a look at what I have and start getting these things as most of them will come in handy over the rest of my years that's for sure.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jamiedolan View Post
Normally 250 or 1000. I've been using alot of 250, but it is a pain because it isn't on a spool and you spend a lot of time getting it straightened out before you can pull it. I 1000' spool and a wire caddy is much easier to deal with. It's running around $160 for the 1000' at big box stores.

Honestly what I would do in your situation is install a brand new panel that is dead in an appropriate location, hopefully somewhere very close to where the panel is now. There are requirement on where it can and can't be placed. Then I would start running brand new circuits to the new panel.

If you do it this way and leave power on to the house, it is very safe and easy to work around the new panel that has no power, and very nice to be in a house with lights on, but much more dangerous to drill and drag wires.

My parents house was a similar combination of knob and tube, MC, romex, etc. There was an acciendet that damaged a number of wires, and we made the decision to rewire the entire house. I went into the panel, and cut every single wire, everything was dead. Then I started running new wire. Now I have enough experiance, and my dad is good at bending conduit, that I was able to start getting some of the most important stuff light back up 24 hours later. 2 weeks later, about 40% of the house is hot, and the upstairs is all preped, conduit and wires are in place, and the final drops need to be made to the upstairs rooms.

It kind of sucked not having power in many area for working, and I am sure my parrents didn't like the lack of power. However, doing it this way, I know exactly what was hot and what wasn't, because only new circuits where hot, and I was the only person energizing anything. I didn't cross connect anything back into old wires or outlets that could back feed. So it was very easy to go through the house, and just rip out old boxes and wires as necessary, drill as necessary and pull the new wires.

Tools I would not attempt this type of project without:
I am using just about all Klien hand tools, they are the best I have found. Other items are various brands, I can make suggestions on anything if you want. Cheap tools are not worth using, they are a huge waste of your time. Buy the best tools available you won't regret it.

Linemans pliers
Long nose pliers
Romex strippers
Side cutters
Wire strippers
uninsulated wire crimpers
flex drill bits
a long group of fish sticks
fiberglass fishing wands
Large auger style wood boring bits, extensions
Powerful half inch drill
cordless drill gun (makita style)
small drill gun for switch boxes
sawzall
bits and tap
Makita style flashlights
Lock ring pliers
Jig saw
Keyhole saw
Flat fish tape
Fiberfish tape
Regular fish
Klien 10 in 1 screw driver
Folding pocket knife
Hammer / pry bars / sledge
A right angle drill would be extremely usefull

Additional tools necessary if your going to be doing any conduit work.

Jamie
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Old 01-29-2009, 08:13 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by jamiedolan View Post
I've found the 1000's to run a bit higher (price per foot) than the 250's. But well worth it for the advantage of having it on a spool.

Jamie

I really don't like having a bunch of cable flailing about in the garage. I'm going to go with the spooled approach even if it costs a little more.
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Old 01-29-2009, 08:16 AM   #38
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Entire Rewire or New Branch Circuits?


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Originally Posted by Typ0 View Post
I really don't like having a bunch of cable flailing about in the garage. I'm going to go with the spooled approach even if it costs a little more.

Spool would be the best route. Coils are ok when I'm pulling through holes because the wire is "straitened" out.
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Old 01-29-2009, 08:27 AM   #39
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It's Ok. I'm married I'm used to being frustrated. Like I said, it's more a frustration of the re-learning process. Once I get going I'm OK. Plus, it's easy to get frustrated when you don't have the right tools...but hard to justify buying them when it's for one small thing.

I look at my house and think how much harder a project like this could be. In fact, outside of a small manufactured home that's dropped on a basement this could be the easiest job you could imagine. You can think of and entire second floor over the first that is down to the studs and unfinished. There is a bedroom and bathroom up there...but there is crawl space behind every wall except the one that goes to the outside and the wall that separates them. There is access everywhere from above also.

So I've basically got access to 80% of my downstairs from above as well. I also think, if I'm willing to use some extra cable, I could access all the boxes downstairs from below. Instead of fishing them through the walls like they are now I could just drill up through the crawl space between the studs where the boxes are and voila, I am just a couple feet from the box.

I'd put a new circuit in the kitchen, and then leave everything that's there now but install GFCI outlets. The reason is they are all installed in a tile wall and I would have to bust out the tile to fix them now. I do plan to remodel the kitchen down the road so figure I can just leave that old wiring there until that remodel project. I don't want to remodel until my kids are past the very young destructive child phase. that's just the countertop outlets I'm talking about.

The other rooms I also think most can be done through access in the walls and above. The bathroom would need to be ripped up a little...but I can do drywall work so I'm not really worried about what I have to rip up. In fact, if faced with the choice of spending hours upon hours trying to fish some things that are very difficult to fish, I probably would just route a hole and repair it. As long as you repair all your drywall in a wave of repairs instead of piecemeal them it's not that time consuming. We need to paint anyway.

But the question still remains if this is the right approach timewise & financially, which I'm going to address in response to another post below.



Quote:
Originally Posted by jamiedolan View Post
If you get frustrated with making j hooks for devices, but clamp down devices. If you get frustrated somewhat easily in general, this is NOT a project for you to take on. There are hundreds of small details to learn, and if you don't have lots of patience, plan on smashing all of your walls. Very much work can be done without destruction of walls, but takes lots of time and patience. It may very well be easier for you to smash the walls. In my parrents house we had to preserve lots of nearly 100 year old trim and wood work. So taking the time to fish was very important.

Jamie
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Old 01-29-2009, 08:37 AM   #40
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This is the approach that sounds best to me. But I admit I don't know all the ins and outs of this stuff yet so it's impossible to have a true vision of where the project is going to end up. The questions I have about this approach are:

1) Can I assume my existing wiring to be safe if left in place and used? How many years does it have left? I don't want to spend all that dough on GFCI breakers and have to rewire in ten years anyway. I also don't want to burn my family up because i didn't rewire something that needed to be changed. But how can you tell really?

2) How does this impact the resale value and attractiveness of my home? I'd like to assume we're going to stay here forever, but that isn't realistic right now. I wonder what my expenditures would be for your approach and how it would impact the resale value of my home.

But this is the way of going about it that I have leaned towards because it's going to be the easiest to get done. For one thing, I'm going to change out the box in both scenario's and hire someone to do that. In this scenario that money spent gets me just about all the way there except for changing out fixtures and recepticles. Those things can be done at my leisure one at a time over the course of however long it takes. But again, does the fact that it satisfies the code mean my family is safe? Is there any way to tell?




Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnettica View Post
TypO, if I were you I would have an electrician come in an upgrade the service to 200 amps. Updated grounding is required when you do this so that gets taken care of as well. You'll thank me when the electrician comes in later to wire up your new central A/C system and tells you your 100 amps will work but will dim the lights each time the compressor starts up. Also, he could install GFCI breakers for all the circuits that are not grounded so then you could comeback and change out all the receptacles in the house to 3-prong without having to rewire the whole house and have all of that satisfy the code. As for your sensitive electronic equipment, I would definitely advise you to run dedicated 20 amp circuits (12/ 2 w/ ground) for all of them.
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Old 01-29-2009, 08:38 AM   #41
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Airial.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rgsgww View Post
Service upgrades can affect the "lights dimming" when high load motors start up. Sometimes it won't. I had a 400 amp service "paralleling" 2 4/0 al. When I had some unrelated work done, the power had to be cut (buried service). The poco wanted a new service put in. It would have been the cheapest compared to reconnecting the original. They used 2 350kcmil for the hot legs and a 4/0 neutral. My lights used to dim to a 14 amp furnace start. I have yet to see the lights dim...


If you want a 200 panel, what service do you currently have? arieal or burial?
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Old 01-29-2009, 08:39 AM   #42
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how much does new service cost?
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Old 01-29-2009, 08:41 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by rgsgww View Post
Spool would be the best route. Coils are ok when I'm pulling through holes because the wire is "straitened" out.

I always keep the wires straight...and that's a huge pain the ass sometimes. Still, I want clean and straight cable runs because then if you send something else through there things don't get all messy and you can always clearly see what you have. Plus, there is less chances of something damaging your wires.
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Old 01-29-2009, 09:51 AM   #44
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... I'd put a new circuit in the kitchen, and then leave everything that's there now but install GFCI outlets. ...
Just be wary about what else is on those old kitchen circuits. I think we've narrowed one circuit in our kitchen down to (remember, 1, circuit -- 15A even):

Quad-plug on left counter
Quad-plug on right counter
Duplex plug in pantry
Refrigerator
Duplex plug on wall in kitchen
Basement lights
Quad-plug in basement ceiling

And it's that "few" outlets because, IIRC, I removed the kitchen lights from that circuit when we redid our kitchen ceiling.

-Walden
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Old 01-29-2009, 11:54 AM   #45
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how much does new service cost?

It really depends on where you live, who you have do the job.

It could cost anywhere from $1000-$3000


These numbers aren't exact. Get some people to look at it.

New service means new weatherhead, new meterbase, new panel, new wires. You will need new grounding. Sometimes the poco will keep the lines running to your place, sometimes they will not.

What code cycle do you run under? What requirements does your city have? Does your city have a website with code?

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