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Old 01-22-2011, 10:09 PM   #46
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Electrician Nerd Needed - Induction Generation


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Originally Posted by pmanske View Post
Hi - I really don't know what that meter really measures. The meter measures as the watts go across, it does not measure potential or what is available. If the outgo meter is the opposite of the income meter than the meters measures what is drawn, not what is provided or what the grid is capable of providing. Your house meter measures the kw hours your houses uses, not what is available on the grid.

P
is there some drugs involved in your plans? It sounds like you are getting a good start on things, at least concerning that part.

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Old 01-22-2011, 10:26 PM   #47
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Fuel efficiency & run time
Look for a generator that is both fuel efficient and has a long run time. Honda generators offer several features that meet this need.

Honda Inverter generators feature our exclusive Eco-Throttle, which automatically adjusts the engine speed to match the power needed. This allows for maximum fuel efficiency.

Because our EU generators are so fuel efficient, they boast incredibly long run times- as much as 20 hours on a single tank of gas!

Our EB and EM generators have large fuel tanks, so you can run your generator for long periods of time without refilling.

Most Honda EB and EM generators feature Auto Throttle. Auto Throttle automatically raises the RPM of the generator from idle when the load is applied, and returns the RPM to idle when the load is removed. It helps to increase fuel efficiency, reduce the noise level, and decrease wear and tear on the generator's components.


It is your position that an engine attached to a gen will spin at one speed regardless of load. Honda and I disagree with you. You can make 500kw an hour but its a big deal if no one wants to use the power. No power requests = no load. The gen will operate at 500kw but at a low engine speed. When load is applied, the RPMs of the engine go up. When load is taken off, the RPMs and fuel consumption drop.

P
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Old 01-22-2011, 10:39 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by pmanske View Post
It is your position that an engine attached to a gen will spin at one speed regardless of load. Honda and I disagree with you. You can make 500kw an hour but its a big deal if no one wants to use the power. No power requests = no load. The gen will operate at 500kw but at a low engine speed. When load is applied, the RPMs of the engine go up. When load is taken off, the RPMs and fuel consumption drop.

P
You go ahead and believe whatever you want. Throttling an engine does not mean an increase in speed. Just like in your car. when you go up a hill you must push the accelerator pedal and open the throttle simply to maintain the same engine speed.

in a generator, it is even more important to maintain a constant and specific speed. The frequency of the power produced is determined by the number of poles in the generator and the speed of rotation. If you alter the speed, you alter the frequency.

A typical generator will run at 3600 RPM.

btw, the Honda units you posted about:

Quote:
Honda 's inverter technology takes the raw power produced by the generator and uses a special microprocessor to condition it through a multi-step process.

First, the generator's alternator produces high voltage multiphase AC power. The AC power is then converted to DC. Finally the DC power is converted back to AC by the inverter. The inverter also smoothes and cleans the power to make it high quality. A special microprocessor controls the entire process, as well as the speed of the engine.
that is not common in a genset and doesn't apply itself well to high power output generators without a considerable cost penalty.
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Old 01-22-2011, 11:01 PM   #49
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Electrician Nerd Needed - Induction Generation


Quote:
Originally Posted by LyonsElecSupply View Post
Ill start by saying I second a7e's statement. You will NOT have the possibility of creating 10MWh nor will you get rich off of this. You have to buy the fuel to burn plus you MUST have a LICENSED, CERTIFIED electrician install this system.

Second, power companies usually only allow you to sell back a percentage of excess power.
Example: lets say you use 1000kwh per month. You would only be able to sell back 500-750 kwh PER MONTH. Its called "Net Metering"



Im going to break this down for you plain and simple. Your math is flawed. "Peak" is usually only for about 12 hours a day. To create 500kw in 12 hours, you must have a generator capable of 42KWh or more. Hypothetically lets say you CAN do this. (VERY difficult for a residential customer to be able to supply 42 Kwh via generator) Heres some simple math, 500*0.17 is what? $85.....I dont know how you got to 1000 bucks but your calcs are WAY off.

You WILL NOT be able to sell 100Kwh....I will tell you that right now.

Heres what I figure you can make. Your residence MORE THAN LIKELY has a service of not larger than 200A. Meaning you could not POSSIBLY sell back more than 48Kwh MAX per hour. The PROBLEM is that you still need to overcome your LOCAL (house) energy usage.............I dont know what your KWH usage is but all you need to do is take your per month usage and divide by 30 then 24 and add it to 48 to find what your generator would have to MINIMALLY be rated at.

ASSUMING 48Kwh these are your figures

Per day: 1.152 MW
Per month: 34.56 MW
Per year: 420.480 MW

Gross sales per year: (estimated at averages per Kwh @ $.10) $42,048.

Now a bit of business for ya....Gross means before costs.......lets add in costs....

You need to provide FUEL for 420.480 MWh of energy............whats your fuel source? Manure? Wood?
You need to maintain this system as it will run 24/7/365..........Service call might be upwards of $1000 bucks per incident
you need to install the system (Overhead).............
most utility companies have additional charges such as transmission charges, riders, taxes, etc....you have to factor those in (around here they are about 50 per month, so about $600 per year in extra costs)

You may not even be able to build the generator on your property being as it is used for commercial purposes...are you zoned for this? can you build it legally?

My estimation for NET PROFIT?

$2,000-$5,000 per year.....conservatively....You MIGHT be able to squeeze $10k out of it.

http://www.kohlerpower.com/onlinecatalog/pdf/g5316.pdf

Just as a starting reference heres a 50kw Diesel Generator.

2.4l T Charged John Deere

at 100% load it sucks down about 4 gallons of #2 Diesel PER HOUR

Heres some calcs again

Diesel is about 3.20 a gallon

Per hour: $12.8
Per day: $307.2
Per Week: $2150.4
Per month: $9126
Per year: $110,592

NOW since you MUST use biomass your fuel costs wont be AS BAD but you will still need to provide the energy that 4 gallons of Diesel produces per hour OR GREATER due to inefficiencies.

You will probably have a combustion chamber/boiler and a steam turbine type system.

Diesel has about 140,000 btu/gallon so you would need to create 560,000 BTUs per Hour............Plus have a steam turbine capable of capturing the energy and converting it to kinetic energy with minimal loss of energy.
Nice job on the break down. As an HVAC Pro we have to deal with the break down on saving vs RTOI when we sell high efficiency equipment.


But as far as the OPs idea goes ... ain't no way
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Old 01-24-2011, 03:37 AM   #50
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Electrician Nerd Needed - Induction Generation


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The whole posting was a SWAG. How much fuel do you estimate a 900 hp diesel will use?
No clue. Find a spec sheet on a ~1,000 hp ish engine and figure out the hp-hr/gallon rating. Fuel to mechanical efficiency is usually the best when it is near fully loaded and declines at partial load.

The alternator itself can exceed 90% mechanical to electrical conversion efficiency on something this big.
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Old 01-29-2011, 08:35 PM   #51
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Hi - You can hook a diesel gen to the grid by hacking a solar/PV inverter.

The inverter does not care where the electricity comes from as long as it meets the required input.

The volts/amps/watts required for input are bizarre and not produced by off the shelf DC gens. You'll need a custom wound gen to produce at that rate. You can use a wind turbine gen simply by attaching it to a engine is you wish. The wing turbine gens are pricey due to special windings but a gen wired to produce at one speed is much less complex sans development cost.

So - that is how you hook a generator to the grid.

P
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Old 01-29-2011, 08:55 PM   #52
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I use wire nuts to hook it to the grid personally.

I have no idea what your ramblings mean though.
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Old 01-29-2011, 10:18 PM   #53
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Zoning? Sure, just get a shop zoned for light industrial. Shops like that have heavier electric wires.
Don't forget FERC and the EPA
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Old 01-30-2011, 01:39 PM   #54
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Don't let all the haters discourage you pmanske, you're on to something here.

I used to work for a company that built power plants in the 89's and 90's. Our plants were from 5Mw to 250Mw. Back then, the basic number was one million dollars per megawatt of power output as a turn key construction cost. I would imagine that there has not been a dramitic reduction of these 1985 budget numbers.

So the genset should set you back about what $500K ? Then zoning, lease, EPA and FERC hoops
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Old 01-30-2011, 02:05 PM   #55
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Hi Anti - thanks for the time. The inverter is expensive at least for me but it looks like it will work very well.

The next alternative is induction generation. If you don't know about that, read on it as its pretty interesting. I have some gossip about the utilities not accepting grid connect even with UL approved induction gens. I did find one local electric contractor willing to do a study to see if they would connect and they want $5000 - $10000. USDA has a grant available for such studies and I'll write that in a few days. I don't like that part where I pay and if study says yes and then everyone else gets to connect for free.

https://www.selinc.com/search/Search...archtext=700gt

SELinc has a grid tie device that looks good but I'm still talking with them
700GT

Cheers!
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Old 02-02-2011, 02:37 PM   #56
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700GT
As in $700 Grand Total, or something else?
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Old 02-26-2011, 10:34 PM   #57
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Hi -
http://www.woodward.com/gensetcontrollers.aspx

Has a full set of paralleling equipment.
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Old 02-27-2011, 12:41 AM   #58
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Pmanske, do you have any more definite questions we could help you answer? Your thread appears to going off topic.

Thank you, Gary
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Old 02-27-2011, 05:10 PM   #59
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Hi Gary,

My posts are on topic, they always have been. I've talked about fuel, contracts, grid connections and those matters are close enough. You are free to interpret the rules as you like.

The quality of the discussion here is bad. You should shut the site down for that reason. It certainly hasn't helped me any.

Good luck,

Phillip
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Old 02-27-2011, 11:01 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmanske View Post
Hi Gary,

My posts are on topic, they always have been. I've talked about fuel, contracts, grid connections and those matters are close enough. You are free to interpret the rules as you like.

The quality of the discussion here is bad. You should shut the site down for that reason. It certainly hasn't helped me any.

Good luck,

Phillip
In that case, we'll just go ahead and close this thread, but will stop short of shutting down the site.

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