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Electrician Nerd Needed - Induction Generation

7K views 59 replies 18 participants last post by  Termite 
#1 ·
Hi - My utility lets us sell power to the grid if we use biomass and they let you sell 10 megawatts. The income comes to $8 million a year if you can hook it up.

I'd settle for $100,000.

I'm really fixated on this. I think I need a therapist more than an electrician.

Grid connect is difficult and difficult but an arrangement called induction generation connects you to the grid. The phase is adopted by the generation so it always matches. You can brief yourself on this matter with inet searches.

I have lots of questions but I'll do this. I want to do 100kw - go ahead and dispell me.

Good luck!

Phillip
 
#3 ·
Dude, don't get snarky. You live in MN which is next to WI. You want in? You can get in. WE pays $.155 per kw hour, the fed gives $.015 to make $.17.

500kw a day is $1000 in revenue during on peak. Running a gen is really easy, you'd want that business. You barely have to get out of bed.

P
 
#11 ·
Running a gen is really easy, you'd want that business. You barely have to get out of bed.
A 10MW generator isn't a "generator", it's a "generating station"! That's a small powerplant; the kind of system that's usually built into a structure rather than on wheels. Especially if you want to fuel it with biomass, it's going to be a continuous maintenance project.

A 100kW generator is much smaller, but anybody who's tried to keep one running 24/7 knows what it takes. You would be getting out of bed! Not even sure there are biomass generating systems that small available, though.
 
#8 ·
To get $100,000 you need to provide 125KVA,
Thats just over 1000a at 120v,
Thats no small alternator,
Not to mention the needed power to turn the alternator,
Can you realistically provide this amount of power ?
Consistanilly and at a reasonable cost ?
Sounds good on the surfice but the devil is usually in the details.
Me thinks that if it could be done,
then more people would be doing it ?
Why arnt they ?
Hi - My utility lets us sell power to the grid if we use biomass and they let you sell 10 megawatts. The income comes to $8 million a year if you can hook it up.

I'd settle for $100,000.

I'm really fixated on this. I think I need a therapist more than an electrician.

Grid connect is difficult and difficult but an arrangement called induction generation connects you to the grid. The phase is adopted by the generation so it always matches. You can brief yourself on this matter with inet searches.

I have lots of questions but I'll do this. I want to do 100kw - go ahead and dispell me.

Good luck!

Phillip
 
#10 · (Edited)
Ill start by saying I second a7e's statement. You will NOT have the possibility of creating 10MWh nor will you get rich off of this. You have to buy the fuel to burn plus you MUST have a LICENSED, CERTIFIED electrician install this system.

Second, power companies usually only allow you to sell back a percentage of excess power.
Example: lets say you use 1000kwh per month. You would only be able to sell back 500-750 kwh PER MONTH. Its called "Net Metering"

500kw a day is $1000 in revenue during on peak. Running a gen is really easy, you'd want that business. You barely have to get out of bed.
Im going to break this down for you plain and simple. Your math is flawed. "Peak" is usually only for about 12 hours a day. To create 500kw in 12 hours, you must have a generator capable of 42KWh or more. Hypothetically lets say you CAN do this. (VERY difficult for a residential customer to be able to supply 42 Kwh via generator) Heres some simple math, 500*0.17 is what? $85.....I dont know how you got to 1000 bucks but your calcs are WAY off.

You WILL NOT be able to sell 100Kwh....I will tell you that right now.

Heres what I figure you can make. Your residence MORE THAN LIKELY has a service of not larger than 200A. Meaning you could not POSSIBLY sell back more than 48Kwh MAX per hour. The PROBLEM is that you still need to overcome your LOCAL (house) energy usage.............I dont know what your KWH usage is but all you need to do is take your per month usage and divide by 30 then 24 and add it to 48 to find what your generator would have to MINIMALLY be rated at.

ASSUMING 48Kwh these are your figures

Per day: 1.152 MW
Per month: 34.56 MW
Per year: 420.480 MW

Gross sales per year: (estimated at averages per Kwh @ $.10) $42,048.

Now a bit of business for ya....Gross means before costs.......lets add in costs....

You need to provide FUEL for 420.480 MWh of energy............whats your fuel source? Manure? Wood?
You need to maintain this system as it will run 24/7/365..........Service call might be upwards of $1000 bucks per incident
you need to install the system (Overhead).............
most utility companies have additional charges such as transmission charges, riders, taxes, etc....you have to factor those in (around here they are about 50 per month, so about $600 per year in extra costs)

You may not even be able to build the generator on your property being as it is used for commercial purposes...are you zoned for this? can you build it legally?

My estimation for NET PROFIT?

$2,000-$5,000 per year.....conservatively....You MIGHT be able to squeeze $10k out of it.

http://www.kohlerpower.com/onlinecatalog/pdf/g5316.pdf

Just as a starting reference heres a 50kw Diesel Generator.

2.4l T Charged John Deere

at 100% load it sucks down about 4 gallons of #2 Diesel PER HOUR

Heres some calcs again

Diesel is about 3.20 a gallon

Per hour: $12.8
Per day: $307.2
Per Week: $2150.4
Per month: $9126
Per year: $110,592

NOW since you MUST use biomass your fuel costs wont be AS BAD but you will still need to provide the energy that 4 gallons of Diesel produces per hour OR GREATER due to inefficiencies.

You will probably have a combustion chamber/boiler and a steam turbine type system.

Diesel has about 140,000 btu/gallon so you would need to create 560,000 BTUs per Hour............Plus have a steam turbine capable of capturing the energy and converting it to kinetic energy with minimal loss of energy.
 
#14 ·
Ill start by saying I second a7e's statement. You will NOT have the possibility of creating 10MWh nor will you get rich off of this. You have to buy the fuel to burn plus you MUST have a LICENSED, CERTIFIED electrician install this system.

Second, power companies usually only allow you to sell back a percentage of excess power.
Example: lets say you use 1000kwh per month. You would only be able to sell back 500-750 kwh PER MONTH. Its called "Net Metering"



Im going to break this down for you plain and simple. Your math is flawed. "Peak" is usually only for about 12 hours a day. To create 500kw in 12 hours, you must have a generator capable of 42KWh or more. Hypothetically lets say you CAN do this. (VERY difficult for a residential customer to be able to supply 42 Kwh via generator) Heres some simple math, 500*0.17 is what? $85.....I dont know how you got to 1000 bucks but your calcs are WAY off.

You WILL NOT be able to sell 100Kwh....I will tell you that right now.

Heres what I figure you can make. Your residence MORE THAN LIKELY has a service of not larger than 200A. Meaning you could not POSSIBLY sell back more than 48Kwh MAX per hour. The PROBLEM is that you still need to overcome your LOCAL (house) energy usage.............I dont know what your KWH usage is but all you need to do is take your per month usage and divide by 30 then 24 and add it to 48 to find what your generator would have to MINIMALLY be rated at.

ASSUMING 48Kwh these are your figures

Per day: 1.152 MW
Per month: 34.56 MW
Per year: 420.480 MW

Gross sales per year: (estimated at averages per Kwh @ $.10) $42,048.

Now a bit of business for ya....Gross means before costs.......lets add in costs....

You need to provide FUEL for 420.480 MWh of energy............whats your fuel source? Manure? Wood?
You need to maintain this system as it will run 24/7/365..........Service call might be upwards of $1000 bucks per incident
you need to install the system (Overhead).............
most utility companies have additional charges such as transmission charges, riders, taxes, etc....you have to factor those in (around here they are about 50 per month, so about $600 per year in extra costs)

You may not even be able to build the generator on your property being as it is used for commercial purposes...are you zoned for this? can you build it legally?

My estimation for NET PROFIT?

$2,000-$5,000 per year.....conservatively....You MIGHT be able to squeeze $10k out of it.

http://www.kohlerpower.com/onlinecatalog/pdf/g5316.pdf

Just as a starting reference heres a 50kw Diesel Generator.

2.4l T Charged John Deere

at 100% load it sucks down about 4 gallons of #2 Diesel PER HOUR

Heres some calcs again

Diesel is about 3.20 a gallon

Per hour: $12.8
Per day: $307.2
Per Week: $2150.4
Per month: $9126
Per year: $110,592

NOW since you MUST use biomass your fuel costs wont be AS BAD but you will still need to provide the energy that 4 gallons of Diesel produces per hour OR GREATER due to inefficiencies.

You will probably have a combustion chamber/boiler and a steam turbine type system.

Diesel has about 140,000 btu/gallon so you would need to create 560,000 BTUs per Hour............Plus have a steam turbine capable of capturing the energy and converting it to kinetic energy with minimal loss of energy.


Hi Lyons, thank you for your reply. Yours was the meanest so I'll thank you the most.

These gens are UL approved and in operation already. Licensed electricians install them.

http://www.marathonelectric.com/generators/docs/manuals/SB317.pdf


The limits? WE doesn't state that in the details, they say up 10 Mega watt. The point is ominous and has me worried. Today I talked to a staff engineer
at Roman Electric and he said they just put a 500kw solar unit on their roof. The limit I have read is that WE buys up to 5% of the previous years retails sales but in the aggregate, that is all of the customer base.

Income? The utility pays $.155 per kilowatt hour. If I produce a 100kw hour I get $.15 * 100 = $15. 12 hours on peak = 12 * 15 = 180 * 5 (500kw) = $1000 a day ish.

I don't want to sell 500kw accumulated, I want to sell 500kw per hour.


Fuel? good point as its a weak point. You quoted $3.20 but thats retail bio diesel. You'll have to dig around but if you look and make agreements to but LOTS, like 30 metric tons a month you'll find it at $1.00 a gallon. Veg oil works too but the same deal. That leads us to wood biomass and some form of gasification. Wood gas is a mess. Pyrolysis oil is much better but alot harder to get although it should be cheap.

Altogether another discussion about biomass fuel and its fascinating but deserves another thread.

http://www.dieselserviceandsupply.com/Diesel_Fuel_Consumption.aspx

Fuel use chart.

Running a gen is really easy. You need to fuel but it still pretty easy. Fuel, check oil and water and air filter and thats all. The gens run themselves.

Problems? The Gens don't have to run 24/7. I shut down at off peak. A local diesel mechanic makes the repairs. Its OK if the system is offline.


Grid connect was difficult but induction generation solves that. The gens are certified and UL approved.

Production? Easy - a 200KW gen makes 200 kilowatts an hour.

Zoning? No problem, just move to an industrial area and get a shop. You are still a customer albeit not residential and the agreement applies.

Smoke? I have lived with gens before in the Navy. It was unpleasant. I smelled smoke and heard the noise but thats work. You'll have to funnel exhaust somewhere outside within environ laws ands codes.

Taxes, yes but not crippling.

Your point about line load was the best. How do I get passed the the 200 amp breaker? I thought about that and talked to the engineer and he did not seem to be concerned. I asked again and he was not concerned and told he Roman Electric sells 500kw per hour daily from their roof. We have digester plants in WI that sell big electric so its not impossible. I thought I would have to do higher voltage and he said no, 220 or 440 works fine right back into the input line.


This baby is good.

http://cgi.ebay.com/220kw-PRIMELINE...ltDomain_0&hash=item3ef048f70b#ht_1219wt_1139


I did not like your limit argument, you got kind of vague and did not cite a reference. There is a specific rule that WE enforces and they are not throwing that around. You did not cite a specific document or rule. The utility posts large limits and I know farms that sell 750kw per hour and provide under this agreement.

Thank Lyons, good job!

P
 
#12 ·
Why don't you just drive a pickup truck on a pair of treadmills and harness the output together?
I hear that you can then drive a 100kW motor for every 140 RWHP. Each 100kW motor is good for one 1,000 kW generator, which will then drive a 10MW motor which can then drive a 100MW generator and so on and so forth.

Each step allows upconversion by a factor of 10, it's a fact.
 
#13 ·
Get a solar panel, a spot light, hook them up together. Shine a flashlight on the solar panel, it will make the spot light produce light shining on the solar panel. The flashlight can now be turned off, and you now have unlimited power. Just need to tap into the solar panel to harvest it.

Actually when I was a little kid I wanted to do this, I thought it would work. :laughing:
 
#15 ·
Poop! I made big reply and now its gone.

Poop!


Lyons response was the most aggressive. I thank him the most.


http://www.hardydiesel.com/generator-ends/dl/marathon-primeline-generators.pdf

http://cgi.ebay.com/220kw-PRIMELINE...ltDomain_0&hash=item3ef048f70b#ht_1219wt_1139


These are the babies. These connect you to the grid with the power. Takes care of synchronization, voltage reg and its all UL approved. Lic Electrician already installs them.

Fuel? Yes its not cheap. Yes, biodiesel goes for $3.29 a gallon. I beak even at $2.00 a gal. You can get cheap fuel but you have to buy LOTS, like a one year agreement at 50 metric tones. 1 & 1/2 a tanker a month.

Money? I want to sell 500kw hour. I need a gen that rated at 600 KW and than means the machine makes 600 kw per hour. Run at 75% ish is 500kw 500 * .155 * 12 = $1000 ish. I dont want to sell 500kw accumulated, I want to sell 500kw per hour. Half of that for fuel? $500 take home. 75%? $250 take home. I'm middle class. That is still a lot of money for me.

I dont have to operate at 24/7. I shut down during off peak. Machine breaks down, I call the diesel mech if the engine goes.

Running a gen is easy. Not only is this money good, there is no work involved once the plant is connected. I mostly have the day off to call fuel sellers and remind them they are breaking my balls.

Amp limit? Excellent point. I thought about that all night. I talked to the engineer at Roman Electric today and he said his company puts out 500kw from solar on his roof to the grid everyday to the 220 line. 500kw is lots of power and I thought it was too much, I thought I may have to transform to a much higher voltage but he said no. I'm not certain so I'll ask again.

Zoning? Sure, just get a shop zoned for light industrial. Shops like that have heavier electric wires.

5% limits? WE seems to have a limit but that limit is applied to the aggregate, that is put against all retail sales, not one customer. The are several big E sellers to WE. Farms with biodigesters for instance.

Fuel again? Next is biomass with some form of gasification after diesel. Not suitable for discussion here on this thread but a good discussion none the less.

Taxes? yes but not crippling.

Insurance = $5000 a year.


More later

P
 
#17 ·
Go to the cat website where they have info on diesel generator sets. Price out what size you want. Then price out the computerized synchronizing switchgear you'll need in order to be in step with the grid. Price out the cost of buying land and and having an engineering firm design the system. Not just electrical, fuel, water cooling, etc. Once you have it built, you'll need to hire someone to operate and maintain it. I doubt you have the credentials needed, boilers licence, engineers license, etc. The EPA is coming out with stricter standards for emissions of engines, so the new unit would need to meet or exceed the new tier 4 specifications. The project needs to be Ok'ed by the power company. You also need permits / and hold licenses from the town, but also state and federal levels in order to operate a power plant. Roughly the same process as the power company takes to build a new power plant. How many power companies are building power plants like crazy? It's not easy.

By the time you start making money you will need to upgrade. profits go out with the bathwater.:laughing:

The power company can make electricity a lot cheaper.:yes: And they know what they are doing.
 
#20 ·
Explain to me, how do you safely and legally connect generators to the power grid. I know, I just want to make sure you know.:huh:

Any kind of spinning machine that produces AC electricity does it through induction; anything from a car alternator to someone's 12 kW backup generator or a power company's 600 MW power plant.
 
#19 ·
you do realize you need a prime mover to turn those generators, right? So far you keep posting up the generator sans driver. What do you have in mind to drive the generator?

any idea how much horsepower it takes to produce 100,000 watts (100 kW)



do you realize what kind of current you would be pushing to pump out 100 kW at 240 volts? Ever work with that kind of amperage?



and of course you have 3 phase power to your pole, right? If not, your calculations just took a serious dump.

I just love it when little kids get big ideas such as this. :laughing:
 
#21 ·
I used to think this way when I was a little kid. I'm talking, like, when I was maybe 10. I had all these big bright ideas for green energy, perpetual motion, and other stuff but had no resources at that age to experiment. As I grew up I realized none of that is possible.

If you want to generate NN amount of electricity, you need to be able to provide your device with that much energy. You don't create electricity, you convert a source of energy into it.

Take an electric motor, like maybe a 12vdc one. Hook it up to the chuck of a dremel, and turn it on so your motor is spinning. That motor will be generating electricity. Now start adding loads on it, and the dremel is actually going to start forcing, and eventually not be able to turn anymore. Short it out, and you have an electric brake for your dremel. (and it might smell funny).

Not saying this is not plausible, but you do need to find a very low cost method of generating lot of horse power, or more precisly, torque. Nevermind watts at this point. You either need to make something spin very fast, or spin very strong (you can always gear up/down accordingly). You probably wont be pulling this off in a house if you want to get into turning power capable of generating MWs.
 
#22 ·
Hi RS,

You seem to vacillate between having it be impossible because I just can't make the power which I can with a diesel engine true enough and then having it be too expensive. I'm more worried about it being too expensive. I already have the torque from the diesel engine. I'm not certain what part you don't like about that. Pick one.

I'm worried about the price of veg oil/biodiesel.

I was an electrician in the Navy. It was dull, school had a challenge. Gen watch was really dull. I have about 2000 hours of gen watch. It was dull, dull dull.

After that is wood gasification which is kind of a mess but its good at making heat. Capstone turbine can run on hot air and it works on woodgas but thats pretty complicated but looks like fun. Woodgas leaves a mess in gasoline and diesel engines.

Fast pyrolysis bio oil is great but its hard to get.

There is alot of trap grease/brown grease available. Grease biodigests very well but you'll have a a big rack of 55 gallon drums that needs to be heated.


I'm gonna lean on diesel. I'm still not confident on the current load.

P
 
#23 ·
Well imo diesel or any gas unit is out of the question. If you're going to do that may as well just buy a generator and tie it to the grid. It's going to cost you more to run it, then the money you'll make and it will defeat the whole purpose.

Wind, Sun, maybe even nuclear is what you need to look into if you actually want to make profit. I personally would not recommend nuclear though. It causes acne. :laughing:

If you can come up with some totally free way to make that thing spin, then that's where you can make a profit. Geothermal steam engine maybe? Lot of things you can try to look into, but simply burning a fuel that everyone already uses, probably wont be good enough, not to mention not be green at all.
 
#25 ·
you just have to pay for the wood. The inefficient and labor intensive wood. So now, you have to buy a wood chipper to chip up all that wood you get from wherever. Then you will likely need a tractor loader to move it. It's going to take a lot of wood to run this thing) Don't forget storage so it doesn't get constantly soaked. It does rain up where you are, right?

and of course, if you are using it to make steam for running a turbine, don't forget all the high pressure piping.

you know that 500kW that place sells back to the POCO. Ever price out a solar system that can produce 500kW let alone big enough to produce power to use and on top of that have 500kW excess? Try about 3+ million dollars. Try figuring the payback on that one and see how profitable the system is.

Most places only install solar where they get some serious federal money or some other government entity to help with the cost. Without that, it is a big money loser.
 
#26 ·
By weight Petroleum has the highest net energy return.

Nothing else (save solar, but you wont get near even a 1Mw Solar array.)

The problem here, OP, is that whatever energy you CREATE and PUT INTO THE GRID MUST come from somewhere, in a GREATER amount proportional to the overall efficiency of the unit. NOTHING is 100% efficient,

Petrol engines for example are about 25% efficient meaning 25% of the energy CONSUMED is turned into useable kinetic energy in the form of torque.

"Energy is neither created nor destroyed, only converted"

You speak as if this electricity is EASY to generate and extremely efficient.
 
#29 ·
Here's how I figure it:

500kw = 670 horsepower. Generators are less than 100% efficient, so I'll pick 75% because I don't know any better. This means your engine must procuce 894 hp; Let's round that to 900 hp just to make it easy. My car uses about 100 hp to go 60 mph, and it gets thirty mpg. So that's 2 gallons per hour per 100 hp. At that rate, your 900 hp engine will use 18 gal per hour * 12 hours peak time, which comes to 216 gallons per day. That's a lot of French fry grease. At the price you quoted for bio-diesil ($3.29) that's $710.64.

If the utility pays you $.15/kwh, you will get .15 * 500 kw * 12 hours = $900 per day for a profit of $189.36 per day, or a little over $69,000 per year.

How much will your equipment cost to buy, install and maintain?

And, as RedSquirrel pointed out, 500 kw at 240 volts is a LOT of current - over 2000 amps. You're gonna need some BIG wires.
 
#30 ·
And, as RedSquirrel pointed out, 500 kw at 240 volts is a LOT of current - over 2000 amps. You're gonna need some BIG wires.
and the wires are likely the least expensive part of the system. Switch gear for 2000 amp circuits is un-Godly expensive.

and I would bet the building department require an engineer be involved in anything like this.

then, since this is a commercial entity, does the OP even have the proper zoning to operate a generating station.

then, once the neighbors start yelling about the noise and OP has to shut everything down, that $0 income with all those costs not being paid for is not a fun place to be.
 
#31 ·
Bah, just use a custom made knife switch for switch gear. Dunk it in mineral oil. :p

In all honesty, if I was doing power at home, I'd go solar or wind, and low scale. As soon as you go high scale you should probably be buying industrial land somewhere, and have more space.

Or you can do like Tony Stark and build an arc reactor. They are fairly quiet and low maintenance.
 
#32 ·
Hi - thank you for your input. I asked for "no's" and I got plenty and I rejected almost all of them. Maybe that means I was not sincere, nay a troll. Again thanks, yes men are a dime a dozen. Quality no men are little more expensive.

Today I had a chat with a manger at Marathon and he stands firmly behind the induction generation benefits. The odd part is is that installation for regular operation and installation for power generation are exactly the same with the same effect ... meaning that these units will provide power to the grid since you cannot impead flow once the gens are hooked up even if the load is designed to go in the opposite direction, that is away from the grid. Meaning the power company will accept the power but not pay you for it.

That manager then directed me toward this company
http://www.ghdinc.net/Martin_Machinery_Gen-Tec.pdf

This company is real and they said the switch gear costs $15,000. This company is the folks that put the manure digesters on line. He said he'd do the whole project and guarantee success as they have done it many times.

I asked about the induction grid tie and he said the utilities just say no, other than one app for small wind. They offer no reason, just a shrug and an insistence that "They are the power company and they will do as they please so go do yourself".

The man at the company said you can try to get that approved and you will just waste time and money but you won't get arrested. The util says no, thats all.


The other thing that was interesting was my discussion with this company
http://www.ensyn.com/

they use a form of gasification called fast pyrolysis and it makes a fuel that is cheap and can be used in diesels. He told me medium speed engines only and that I did not know, but now I do. Medium speeds are much more rare and come in large sizes mostly over 1 megawatt but i found one company that makes a 300K model. There is a pyro plant here in Milwaukee so delivery does not have to go far.

I offered him $1 a gallon 30 MT a month for a year FOB/CIF (means delivered)
and he said call him. So its looks like I can get unlimited fuel at $1 a gallon.

Operating space is no big deal, you just need an old factory because those places are zoned industrial already and the landlord would really to have tenants again.

The space below goes for $650 a month and is lonely and forlorn. No one wants to go there. Its not a dangerous place, just old and and rust beltish. Better than a meth lab! All of that heat from the gen may be used to hide grow lights.



Current? The people I talk to aren't concerned. In the Navy, we pumped out lotsa watts, it did not trip everything all of the time. The presence of the power is not noticed, its use or rather the resistance that means its use, is.

P
 
#33 ·
Current? The people I talk to aren't concerned. In the Navy, we pumped out lotsa watts, it did not trip everything all of the time. The presence of the power is not noticed, its use or rather the resistance that means its use, is.

P
that wasn't the point. Your gear must be rated to carry the current. It gets very expensive as the rating increases. Just more money to spend.
 
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