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Old 01-21-2011, 04:23 PM   #31
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Electrician Nerd Needed - Induction Generation


Bah, just use a custom made knife switch for switch gear. Dunk it in mineral oil. :P

In all honesty, if I was doing power at home, I'd go solar or wind, and low scale. As soon as you go high scale you should probably be buying industrial land somewhere, and have more space.

Or you can do like Tony Stark and build an arc reactor. They are fairly quiet and low maintenance.

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Old 01-21-2011, 09:57 PM   #32
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Hi - thank you for your input. I asked for "no's" and I got plenty and I rejected almost all of them. Maybe that means I was not sincere, nay a troll. Again thanks, yes men are a dime a dozen. Quality no men are little more expensive.

Today I had a chat with a manger at Marathon and he stands firmly behind the induction generation benefits. The odd part is is that installation for regular operation and installation for power generation are exactly the same with the same effect ... meaning that these units will provide power to the grid since you cannot impead flow once the gens are hooked up even if the load is designed to go in the opposite direction, that is away from the grid. Meaning the power company will accept the power but not pay you for it.

That manager then directed me toward this company
http://www.ghdinc.net/Martin_Machinery_Gen-Tec.pdf

This company is real and they said the switch gear costs $15,000. This company is the folks that put the manure digesters on line. He said he'd do the whole project and guarantee success as they have done it many times.

I asked about the induction grid tie and he said the utilities just say no, other than one app for small wind. They offer no reason, just a shrug and an insistence that "They are the power company and they will do as they please so go do yourself".

The man at the company said you can try to get that approved and you will just waste time and money but you won't get arrested. The util says no, thats all.


The other thing that was interesting was my discussion with this company
http://www.ensyn.com/

they use a form of gasification called fast pyrolysis and it makes a fuel that is cheap and can be used in diesels. He told me medium speed engines only and that I did not know, but now I do. Medium speeds are much more rare and come in large sizes mostly over 1 megawatt but i found one company that makes a 300K model. There is a pyro plant here in Milwaukee so delivery does not have to go far.

I offered him $1 a gallon 30 MT a month for a year FOB/CIF (means delivered)
and he said call him. So its looks like I can get unlimited fuel at $1 a gallon.

Operating space is no big deal, you just need an old factory because those places are zoned industrial already and the landlord would really to have tenants again.

The space below goes for $650 a month and is lonely and forlorn. No one wants to go there. Its not a dangerous place, just old and and rust beltish. Better than a meth lab! All of that heat from the gen may be used to hide grow lights.



Current? The people I talk to aren't concerned. In the Navy, we pumped out lotsa watts, it did not trip everything all of the time. The presence of the power is not noticed, its use or rather the resistance that means its use, is.

P
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Old 01-21-2011, 10:13 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by pmanske View Post

Current? The people I talk to aren't concerned. In the Navy, we pumped out lotsa watts, it did not trip everything all of the time. The presence of the power is not noticed, its use or rather the resistance that means its use, is.

P
that wasn't the point. Your gear must be rated to carry the current. It gets very expensive as the rating increases. Just more money to spend.
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Old 01-22-2011, 04:49 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Pistol Pete View Post
My car uses about 100 hp to go 60 mph, and it gets thirty mpg. So that's 2 gallons per hour per 100 hp.
what the fawk?

How did you come up with this? You can't measure the engine horsepower without a shaft torque transducer.

There are industrial engines rated in hp-hr/gallon, but by what you're claiming, you're getting 50 hp-hr/gallon. I've never ever heard of any small engines getting an efficiency of this level. Possibly mayhaps in slow multi-hundred liter displacement vessels burning bunker fuel.
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Old 01-22-2011, 09:24 AM   #35
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The whole posting was a SWAG. How much fuel do you estimate a 900 hp diesel will use?


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Originally Posted by HVAC_NW View Post
what the fawk?

How did you come up with this? You can't measure the engine horsepower without a shaft torque transducer.

There are industrial engines rated in hp-hr/gallon, but by what you're claiming, you're getting 50 hp-hr/gallon. I've never ever heard of any small engines getting an efficiency of this level. Possibly mayhaps in slow multi-hundred liter displacement vessels burning bunker fuel.
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Old 01-22-2011, 10:27 AM   #36
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I think the guy gets paid for every one of the links he posted, that we click on!
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Old 01-22-2011, 06:05 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by nap View Post
that wasn't the point. Your gear must be rated to carry the current. It gets very expensive as the rating increases. Just more money to spend.
Hi - Gen manufacturers would not make a gen set that could not handle its own power. Three installers of these systems have not been concerned about current. They are concerned about about phase matching, voltage regulation and islanding. We does not talk about current.

One thing I have and everyone else has missed is demand/load. When the load goes up, more fuel is needed as the engine has to turn more to keep up speed. I have no idea what load will be. I said I did not want to produce at night due to less pay per kilowatt. At night you will supply a steady stream of kilowatts when no one wants them, thus lower fuel expense. It may actually work out best at off peak since the fuel necessary could 2/3 thirds less and the pay is only halved.


A note about ethanol. Ethanol will be cost effective if you use a gasifier to make heat but the engines that can use ethanol will be small since they are car and small truck engines. If you want to make lots of power, you will have
banks of engines at about 30kw. I'm not certain if you need switchgear for each engine or if you can bank them into one switchgear.

P
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Old 01-22-2011, 06:53 PM   #38
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Quote:
pmanske;575815]Hi - Gen manufacturers would not make a gen set that could not handle its own power. Three installers of these systems have not been concerned about current. They are concerned about about phase matching, voltage regulation and islanding. We does not talk about current.
I have no clue what you are talking about. You need to be concerned about current because every one of your pieces of equipment must be rated to handle the current of your system.

and you weren't talking about genset manufacturers. You were cobbling together one of the generators you linked and whatever prime mover you ended up using.

Quote:
One thing I have and everyone else has missed is demand/load. When the load goes up, more fuel is needed as the engine has to turn more to keep up speed. I have no idea what load will be
.and this shows why this won't work for you. The load on your equipment will be the same, morning noon or night. You are producing power and how much power you feed to the grid is your load.



.
Quote:
I'm not certain if you need switchgear for each engine or if you can bank them into one switchgear.
I think you need to research so you know what switchgear is.
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Old 01-22-2011, 07:18 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by nap View Post
I have no clue what you are talking about. You need to be concerned about current because every one of your pieces of equipment must be rated to handle the current of your system.

and you weren't talking about genset manufacturers. You were cobbling together one of the generators you linked and whatever prime mover you ended up using.

.and this shows why this won't work for you. The load on your equipment will be the same, morning noon or night. You are producing power and how much power you feed to the grid is your load.



. I think you need to research so you know what switchgear is.


You are dead wrong about load. The current is on the device using the power, not on the gen set. The only breaker on the genset is attached to the genset to make sure the system is protected if the gen itself shorts out.

Increased demand on the gen shows by increased demand on the prime mover. We ran a fresh water boiler that made stream to make fresh water from sea water and it took lots of power. The supply of watts was maintained only by increasing engine RPM - the power load was shifted to the engine. If you look at a fuel use chart for diesel engines you'll see 1/4 load, 1/2 load etc. Lower load means no one is drawing power ie off peak demand.


Load = resistance whether it is a normal use or a short. Short = infinite resistance. If you put out 700 KW and no one uses it, there is no load. If you put out 700kw and you get demand for 900 KW, the machines won't work
or the bulbs wont go bright or the network breaker may go.

Current is caused by resistance and resistance is load. A generator is a piece of wire that makes no current.

P
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Old 01-22-2011, 07:35 PM   #40
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Look here.... if you a battery in flashlight but do not turn the bulb on the battery (gen) will last a long while but the battery/genset is set up to provide. Once you turn the light on the load is applied and the battery has a shorter life as the light consumes the potential in the battery.

If you wanted to game that WE contract you could measure grid load and not produce when grid demand is high. You'd still get paid for providing the watts but you would feed no load thus saving fuel.

P
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Old 01-22-2011, 07:45 PM   #41
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Hi - I really don't know what that meter really measures. The meter measures as the watts go across, it does not measure potential or what is available. If the outgo meter is the opposite of the income meter than the meters measures what is drawn, not what is provided or what the grid is capable of providing. Your house meter measures the kw hours your houses uses, not what is available on the grid.

P
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Old 01-22-2011, 08:10 PM   #42
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pmanske why don't you just open your own electric company instead? You could sell electricity and electricity related products to your friends and family.
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Old 01-22-2011, 08:15 PM   #43
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pmanske why don't you just open your own electric company instead? You could sell electricity and electricity related products to your friends and family.
OK. I'll start tomorrow!
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Old 01-22-2011, 09:05 PM   #44
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Quote:
pmanske;575838]You are dead wrong about load. The current is on the device using the power, not on the gen set.
so, what would be "the load"? The millions of homes connected to the grid maybe? You are misunderstanding what you are doing here.

Quote:
The only breaker on the genset is attached to the genset to make sure the system is protected if the gen itself shorts out.
Well, not true at all. In fact, a breaker on a genset would not be involved if there was a short on the generator side of the breaker.

.
Quote:
We ran a fresh water boiler that made stream to make fresh water from sea water and it took lots of power.
Oh God. Not the famous boiling water experiment. Ya got me now.
Quote:
The supply of watts was maintained only by increasing engine RPM -
Really now. I think you might want to research generators. You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

Quote:
the power load was shifted to the engine.
you really don't understand any of this.

Quote:
If you look at a fuel use chart for diesel engines you'll see 1/4 load, 1/2 load etc. Lower load means no one is drawing power ie off peak demand.
ok, you believe whatever you want


Quote:
Load = resistance whether it is a normal use or a short.
wrong

Quote:
Short = infinite resistance.
no. 100% incorrect.

Quote:
If you put out 700 KW and no one uses it, there is no load. If you put out 700kw and you get demand for 900 KW, the machines won't work
or the bulbs wont go bright or the network breaker may go.
So, you figure they just save those electrons in an electron reservoir somewhere?

Quote:
Current is caused by resistance and resistance is load.
wrong

Quote:
A generator is a piece of wire that makes no current.
wrong
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Old 01-22-2011, 09:07 PM   #45
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Quote:
=pmanske;575841]Look here.... if you a battery in flashlight but do not turn the bulb on the battery (gen)
a battery is not a generator, at least in the terms we are dealing with.



Quote:
If you wanted to game that WE contract you could measure grid load and not produce when grid demand is high. You'd still get paid for providing the watts but you would feed no load thus saving fuel.
ya, they need to fill up the electron resevoir. They don't pay as much for that as when somebody is actually using the power.

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