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Old 01-20-2011, 05:27 PM   #16
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Electrician Nerd Needed - Induction Generation


What you spend in fuel will be more omney then what you'll make. If you want to do this, you'll want to go wind or solar.

Or open up a gym and have all your members help turn the generator through special exercise machines, and you charge them for it.

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Old 01-20-2011, 05:33 PM   #17
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Go to the cat website where they have info on diesel generator sets. Price out what size you want. Then price out the computerized synchronizing switchgear you'll need in order to be in step with the grid. Price out the cost of buying land and and having an engineering firm design the system. Not just electrical, fuel, water cooling, etc. Once you have it built, you'll need to hire someone to operate and maintain it. I doubt you have the credentials needed, boilers licence, engineers license, etc. The EPA is coming out with stricter standards for emissions of engines, so the new unit would need to meet or exceed the new tier 4 specifications. The project needs to be Ok'ed by the power company. You also need permits / and hold licenses from the town, but also state and federal levels in order to operate a power plant. Roughly the same process as the power company takes to build a new power plant. How many power companies are building power plants like crazy? It's not easy.

By the time you start making money you will need to upgrade. profits go out with the bathwater.

The power company can make electricity a lot cheaper. And they know what they are doing.
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Old 01-20-2011, 05:36 PM   #18
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Junk, induction generation needs no switchgear. Thats the cool thing about it.
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Old 01-20-2011, 06:18 PM   #19
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you do realize you need a prime mover to turn those generators, right? So far you keep posting up the generator sans driver. What do you have in mind to drive the generator?

any idea how much horsepower it takes to produce 100,000 watts (100 kW)



do you realize what kind of current you would be pushing to pump out 100 kW at 240 volts? Ever work with that kind of amperage?



and of course you have 3 phase power to your pole, right? If not, your calculations just took a serious dump.

I just love it when little kids get big ideas such as this.
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Old 01-20-2011, 06:36 PM   #20
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Junk, induction generation needs no switchgear. Thats the cool thing about it.

Explain to me, how do you safely and legally connect generators to the power grid. I know, I just want to make sure you know.

Any kind of spinning machine that produces AC electricity does it through induction; anything from a car alternator to someone's 12 kW backup generator or a power company's 600 MW power plant.
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Old 01-20-2011, 06:55 PM   #21
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I used to think this way when I was a little kid. I'm talking, like, when I was maybe 10. I had all these big bright ideas for green energy, perpetual motion, and other stuff but had no resources at that age to experiment. As I grew up I realized none of that is possible.

If you want to generate NN amount of electricity, you need to be able to provide your device with that much energy. You don't create electricity, you convert a source of energy into it.

Take an electric motor, like maybe a 12vdc one. Hook it up to the chuck of a dremel, and turn it on so your motor is spinning. That motor will be generating electricity. Now start adding loads on it, and the dremel is actually going to start forcing, and eventually not be able to turn anymore. Short it out, and you have an electric brake for your dremel. (and it might smell funny).

Not saying this is not plausible, but you do need to find a very low cost method of generating lot of horse power, or more precisly, torque. Nevermind watts at this point. You either need to make something spin very fast, or spin very strong (you can always gear up/down accordingly). You probably wont be pulling this off in a house if you want to get into turning power capable of generating MWs.
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Old 01-20-2011, 07:55 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Red Squirrel View Post
I used to think this way when I was a little kid. I'm talking, like, when I was maybe 10. I had all these big bright ideas for green energy, perpetual motion, and other stuff but had no resources at that age to experiment. As I grew up I realized none of that is possible.

If you want to generate NN amount of electricity, you need to be able to provide your device with that much energy. You don't create electricity, you convert a source of energy into it.

Take an electric motor, like maybe a 12vdc one. Hook it up to the chuck of a dremel, and turn it on so your motor is spinning. That motor will be generating electricity. Now start adding loads on it, and the dremel is actually going to start forcing, and eventually not be able to turn anymore. Short it out, and you have an electric brake for your dremel. (and it might smell funny).

Not saying this is not plausible, but you do need to find a very low cost method of generating lot of horse power, or more precisly, torque. Nevermind watts at this point. You either need to make something spin very fast, or spin very strong (you can always gear up/down accordingly). You probably wont be pulling this off in a house if you want to get into turning power capable of generating MWs.
Hi RS,

You seem to vacillate between having it be impossible because I just can't make the power which I can with a diesel engine true enough and then having it be too expensive. I'm more worried about it being too expensive. I already have the torque from the diesel engine. I'm not certain what part you don't like about that. Pick one.

I'm worried about the price of veg oil/biodiesel.

I was an electrician in the Navy. It was dull, school had a challenge. Gen watch was really dull. I have about 2000 hours of gen watch. It was dull, dull dull.

After that is wood gasification which is kind of a mess but its good at making heat. Capstone turbine can run on hot air and it works on woodgas but thats pretty complicated but looks like fun. Woodgas leaves a mess in gasoline and diesel engines.

Fast pyrolysis bio oil is great but its hard to get.

There is alot of trap grease/brown grease available. Grease biodigests very well but you'll have a a big rack of 55 gallon drums that needs to be heated.


I'm gonna lean on diesel. I'm still not confident on the current load.

P
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Old 01-20-2011, 08:03 PM   #23
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Electrician Nerd Needed - Induction Generation


Well imo diesel or any gas unit is out of the question. If you're going to do that may as well just buy a generator and tie it to the grid. It's going to cost you more to run it, then the money you'll make and it will defeat the whole purpose.

Wind, Sun, maybe even nuclear is what you need to look into if you actually want to make profit. I personally would not recommend nuclear though. It causes acne.

If you can come up with some totally free way to make that thing spin, then that's where you can make a profit. Geothermal steam engine maybe? Lot of things you can try to look into, but simply burning a fuel that everyone already uses, probably wont be good enough, not to mention not be green at all.
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Old 01-20-2011, 08:33 PM   #24
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I forgot ethanol. Wood gasification makes making ethanol much cheaper. If you use propane to make heat you have to pay for propane. If you use wood biomass (wood chips) the price comes way down as you don't have to pay for fossil fuels.
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Old 01-20-2011, 09:44 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by pmanske View Post
I forgot ethanol. Wood gasification makes making ethanol much cheaper. If you use propane to make heat you have to pay for propane. If you use wood biomass (wood chips) the price comes way down as you don't have to pay for fossil fuels.
you just have to pay for the wood. The inefficient and labor intensive wood. So now, you have to buy a wood chipper to chip up all that wood you get from wherever. Then you will likely need a tractor loader to move it. It's going to take a lot of wood to run this thing) Don't forget storage so it doesn't get constantly soaked. It does rain up where you are, right?

and of course, if you are using it to make steam for running a turbine, don't forget all the high pressure piping.

you know that 500kW that place sells back to the POCO. Ever price out a solar system that can produce 500kW let alone big enough to produce power to use and on top of that have 500kW excess? Try about 3+ million dollars. Try figuring the payback on that one and see how profitable the system is.

Most places only install solar where they get some serious federal money or some other government entity to help with the cost. Without that, it is a big money loser.
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Old 01-20-2011, 10:40 PM   #26
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By weight Petroleum has the highest net energy return.

Nothing else (save solar, but you wont get near even a 1Mw Solar array.)

The problem here, OP, is that whatever energy you CREATE and PUT INTO THE GRID MUST come from somewhere, in a GREATER amount proportional to the overall efficiency of the unit. NOTHING is 100% efficient,

Petrol engines for example are about 25% efficient meaning 25% of the energy CONSUMED is turned into useable kinetic energy in the form of torque.

"Energy is neither created nor destroyed, only converted"

You speak as if this electricity is EASY to generate and extremely efficient.
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Old 01-20-2011, 11:57 PM   #27
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The thread starter doesn't even have a grasp of kWh vs kW. this is going to be a fail
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Old 01-21-2011, 12:25 AM   #28
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http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloom...edirected=true
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Old 01-21-2011, 01:37 PM   #29
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Here's how I figure it:

500kw = 670 horsepower. Generators are less than 100% efficient, so I'll pick 75% because I don't know any better. This means your engine must procuce 894 hp; Let's round that to 900 hp just to make it easy. My car uses about 100 hp to go 60 mph, and it gets thirty mpg. So that's 2 gallons per hour per 100 hp. At that rate, your 900 hp engine will use 18 gal per hour * 12 hours peak time, which comes to 216 gallons per day. That's a lot of French fry grease. At the price you quoted for bio-diesil ($3.29) that's $710.64.

If the utility pays you $.15/kwh, you will get .15 * 500 kw * 12 hours = $900 per day for a profit of $189.36 per day, or a little over $69,000 per year.

How much will your equipment cost to buy, install and maintain?

And, as RedSquirrel pointed out, 500 kw at 240 volts is a LOT of current - over 2000 amps. You're gonna need some BIG wires.
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Old 01-21-2011, 03:42 PM   #30
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And, as RedSquirrel pointed out, 500 kw at 240 volts is a LOT of current - over 2000 amps. You're gonna need some BIG wires.
and the wires are likely the least expensive part of the system. Switch gear for 2000 amp circuits is un-Godly expensive.

and I would bet the building department require an engineer be involved in anything like this.

then, since this is a commercial entity, does the OP even have the proper zoning to operate a generating station.

then, once the neighbors start yelling about the noise and OP has to shut everything down, that $0 income with all those costs not being paid for is not a fun place to be.

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